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Giller [GwDR wrote:]
Lead Salad wrote:Actually, one of the reasons Asians have done so well in this country is because Asian families typically care a lot more for eachother and live together, making bills and such a lot easier to pay for. (By the way, this is also why Japan has such an amazing economy. No Social Security, because the elderly japanese are usually taken care of by their offspring. American rugged individualism is a double-edged sword, don't forget that.) So that basically takes care of point number two. All of the rest of your points are absolutely irrelevant. If someone makes a choice they have to accept all of the merits and faults of that choice. If the end up fucking themselves over it's their own fault, and no other force may justifiably inhibit that choice. If you're not willing to accept the concept of self-ownership than you really have no place arguing against it, because that's what this argument is about.
Lead....you completely do not understand any of my arguements. You missed the entire point of the post! *Sigh* its so bad that i really don't know how to respond. Please tell me there is somebody otu there who Grasps the basic anthropological ideas I just outlined. Lead I will explain the idea behind what i meant in a PM or something.
No wait...i will title the post: Why Polygamy is not favorable for long term success of a population, the historical communication of that idea, and why modern governments enact legislation against it.
I got what you said. My argument is that it's irrelevant how "bad" polygamy supposedly is. Governments hardly have any justification to exist in the first place, let alone enact legislation against polygamy. You're acting like polygamy being legalised means everybody is going to start taking on more than one spouse, which is comically naive.
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Giller [GwDR wrote:]
I am not making an arguement for what is marriage and what isn't I am simply outlining the historical reasons people did not create Polygamist groups. You are making a common assumption and are applying the 20-21st century Western assumptions of Abundant food, huge local populations, perfectly mobile society, people operating under advance social structures, and short time spans and that's why you dont understand. The truth is Dick, I really dont think you could handle 6 pregnant women at the same time , during the winter.....2000 years ago. And to prevent you from becoming a burden on the community...I for one am going to step in and say. No you only get one wife.
I am trying to attach the reasons why these ideas and social structures were built over Thousands of years...and why they persist in modern governments. You cannot separate lessons ingrained in human communities over thousands of years just because conditions changed in the last 100.
1.
Except that polygamy has always existed in human societies, and continues to be socially and/or legally accepted many places in the world. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.  
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Rank: Fecal Impaction For the Win!

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Lead Salad wrote:Giller [GwDR wrote:]
Lead Salad wrote:Actually, one of the reasons Asians have done so well in this country is because Asian families typically care a lot more for eachother and live together, making bills and such a lot easier to pay for. (By the way, this is also why Japan has such an amazing economy. No Social Security, because the elderly japanese are usually taken care of by their offspring. American rugged individualism is a double-edged sword, don't forget that.) So that basically takes care of point number two. All of the rest of your points are absolutely irrelevant. If someone makes a choice they have to accept all of the merits and faults of that choice. If the end up fucking themselves over it's their own fault, and no other force may justifiably inhibit that choice. If you're not willing to accept the concept of self-ownership than you really have no place arguing against it, because that's what this argument is about.
Lead....you completely do not understand any of my arguements. You missed the entire point of the post! *Sigh* its so bad that i really don't know how to respond. Please tell me there is somebody otu there who Grasps the basic anthropological ideas I just outlined. Lead I will explain the idea behind what i meant in a PM or something.
No wait...i will title the post: Why Polygamy is not favorable for long term success of a population, the historical communication of that idea, and why modern governments enact legislation against it.
I got what you said. My argument is that it's irrelevant how "bad" polygamy supposedly is. Governments hardly have any justification to exist in the first place, let alone enact legislation against polygamy. You're acting like polygamy being legalised means everybody is going to start taking on more than one spouse, which is comically naive.
What I am saying is that governments pass some laws based on cultural values. Some cultures don't value polygamy for the reasons I outlined. So there are laws against it.
wow. Governments have no justification in teh first place. You think you would be better off in anarchy? Look there is a reason for things....You didn't just come along with the right answers all the sudden. You are going to say with a straight face that 10000 years of trial and error...we are doing it completely wrong and you have the answer. Ppl have tried anarchy before...trust me. You arent the first to think it up. They aren't around anymore. That is enough evidence for me.
I dunno..if they legalized it maybe not right away...but 400 years from now..how do you know? Quote:
"Who the fuck is Leon Switch and why does he know we have a dog?" - Mrs. Giller
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Giller [GwDR wrote:] Lead Salad wrote:Giller [GwDR wrote:]
Lead Salad wrote:Actually, one of the reasons Asians have done so well in this country is because Asian families typically care a lot more for eachother and live together, making bills and such a lot easier to pay for. (By the way, this is also why Japan has such an amazing economy. No Social Security, because the elderly japanese are usually taken care of by their offspring. American rugged individualism is a double-edged sword, don't forget that.) So that basically takes care of point number two. All of the rest of your points are absolutely irrelevant. If someone makes a choice they have to accept all of the merits and faults of that choice. If the end up fucking themselves over it's their own fault, and no other force may justifiably inhibit that choice. If you're not willing to accept the concept of self-ownership than you really have no place arguing against it, because that's what this argument is about.
Lead....you completely do not understand any of my arguements. You missed the entire point of the post! *Sigh* its so bad that i really don't know how to respond. Please tell me there is somebody otu there who Grasps the basic anthropological ideas I just outlined. Lead I will explain the idea behind what i meant in a PM or something.
No wait...i will title the post: Why Polygamy is not favorable for long term success of a population, the historical communication of that idea, and why modern governments enact legislation against it.
I got what you said. My argument is that it's irrelevant how "bad" polygamy supposedly is. Governments hardly have any justification to exist in the first place, let alone enact legislation against polygamy. You're acting like polygamy being legalised means everybody is going to start taking on more than one spouse, which is comically naive.
What I am saying is that governments pass some laws based on cultural values. Most cultures don't value polygamy for the reasons I outlined. So there are laws against it.
wow. Governments have no justification in teh first place. You think you would be better off in anarchy? Look there is a reason for things....You didn't just come along with the right answers all the sudden. You are going to say with a straight face that 10000 years of trial and error...we are doing it completely wrong and you have the answer. Ppl have tried anarchy before...trust me. You arent the first to think it up. They aren't around anymore. That is enough evidence for me.
I dunno..if they legalized it maybe not right away...but 400 years from now..how do you know?
First of all, you don't even know what kind of anarchy I'm talking about. So don't just assume I'm some nutcase who loved Mad Max and thought it would be a great idea. The "people who have tried anarchy" that you are referring to? Yeah. Don't act like I don't know. People can do a lot of things and call it one thing but whether or not it's true is highly debatable (Doesn't China call itself communist?). There's a difference between philosophical Anarchy, or Anarcho-capitalism, or Libertarianism, and mafia-esque communities that have sprung up in the wake of war. We've been doing it wrong for the past 10000 years? Well, can you honestly say that the world of today is a perfect place? Let's look at some of the things we can thank your friend, the government, for: The Holocaust Stalin's Purges Mao's Purges Unit 731 The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki The crusades The eradication and displacement of the native american people The colonization of Africa and subsequent mistreatment of its people I can go on, if you'd like?
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Rank: Fecal Impaction For the Win!

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Lead Salad wrote: I can go on, if you'd like?
Please no. 
If you support John McCain and/or George W. Bush, please click here.“I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again.” - Ben Bernanke
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Lead Salad wrote: First of all, you don't even know what kind of anarchy I'm talking about. So don't just assume I'm some nutcase who loved Mad Max and thought it would be a great idea. The "people who have tried anarchy" that you are referring to? Yeah. Don't act like I don't know. People can do a lot of things and call it one thing but whether or not it's true is highly debatable (Doesn't China call itself communist?). There's a difference between philosophical Anarchy, or Anarcho-capitalism, or Libertarianism, and mafia-esque communities that have sprung up in the wake of war.
We've been doing it wrong for the past 10000 years? Well, can you honestly say that the world of today is a perfect place? Let's look at some of the things we can thank your friend, the government, for: The Holocaust Stalin's Purges Mao's Purges Unit 731 The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki The crusades The eradication and displacement of the native american people The colonization of Africa and subsequent mistreatment of its people
I can go on, if you'd like?
Well, some of those I'd blame more on religion and, by extension, governments that were based on or actively influenced by religions. But it does go to show that any grouping of people under any kind of authority - whether it be religious or political - has the potential to do horrible things. It's one of the reasons I dislike and inherently distrust organized religion but have no issue with personal religion/spirituality.
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Rikaelus wrote:Lead Salad wrote: First of all, you don't even know what kind of anarchy I'm talking about. So don't just assume I'm some nutcase who loved Mad Max and thought it would be a great idea. The "people who have tried anarchy" that you are referring to? Yeah. Don't act like I don't know. People can do a lot of things and call it one thing but whether or not it's true is highly debatable (Doesn't China call itself communist?). There's a difference between philosophical Anarchy, or Anarcho-capitalism, or Libertarianism, and mafia-esque communities that have sprung up in the wake of war.
We've been doing it wrong for the past 10000 years? Well, can you honestly say that the world of today is a perfect place? Let's look at some of the things we can thank your friend, the government, for: The Holocaust Stalin's Purges Mao's Purges Unit 731 The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki The crusades The eradication and displacement of the native american people The colonization of Africa and subsequent mistreatment of its people
I can go on, if you'd like?
Well, some of those I'd blame more on religion and, by extension, governments that were based on or actively influenced by religions. But it does go to show that any grouping of people under any kind of authority - whether it be religious or political - has the potential to do horrible things. It's one of the reasons I dislike and inherently distrust organized religion but have no issue with personal religion/spirituality. Religions are just theocratic bureaucracies. 
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Giller [GwDR wrote:Governments have no justification in teh first place. You think you would be better off in anarchy? Look there is a reason for things....You didn't just come along with the right answers all the sudden. You are going to say with a straight face that 10000 years of trial and error...we are doing it completely wrong and you have the answer. Ppl have tried anarchy before...trust me. You arent the first to think it up. They aren't around anymore. That is enough evidence for me. To say that the modern day conceptualization of government rights cannot be different than what came in the past because "[we] didn't just come along with the right answers all of a sudden" strikes me as incorrect relative to the way Western culture has advanced. True representative democracy hasn't existed for much of history, yet a group of very scholarly individuals in the 18th century sat down and codified long-developing principals of government in a way that had never been done before. In Western society, women have historically had far fewer rights than their male counterparts, yet today they have achieved near parity men (another aberration, historically speaking). And don't even get me started on treatment of homosexuals in today's society as compared to historically. Our society and culture are absolutely tied to and derived from that which came before, but to suggest a single idea is immutable because it hasn't been historically allowed (or that it would create anarchy) is just silly. Lead Salad does raise a valid point in that just because polygamy might become legal hardly means people would rush out in droves to collect spouses, just as the same privilege being granted to gays isn't going to cause masses of otherwise heterosexual people to switch sides. Ignoring for a moment all the historical and contemporary examples of polygamy existing and not causing the breakdown of society, many of the practical realities behind what may have been sound historical or evolutionary justifications for avoiding it simply don't exist today. In the modern connected world, there's no reason to think an extremely large family with many children are going to marry and breed with each other. The world population is going to continue to increase regardless of whether governments allow people to decide the manner of their unions, and that decreases "competition for sex." Finally, the level of individual rights protection today exceeds anything in monarchies or authoritarian regimes of old, even the representative republic of the Romans on which much of the US was founded. Other than outdated evolutionary arguments and jokes about pains in the ass, you haven't put forth any really compelling reason why individuals should be denied the right to marry as they see fit (as opposed to how you see fit). Are fewer restrictions on individual rights like marriage and drug use taking steps towards "anarchy," as you say? By definition, yes, but that doesn't mean that the answer is more restrictions, or insisting on the validity of curbing an individual's rights. If I recall, interracial marriage and now gay marriage were/are criticized in much the same way... HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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endyss wrote:Giller [GwDR wrote:Governments have no justification in teh first place. You think you would be better off in anarchy? Look there is a reason for things....You didn't just come along with the right answers all the sudden. You are going to say with a straight face that 10000 years of trial and error...we are doing it completely wrong and you have the answer. Ppl have tried anarchy before...trust me. You arent the first to think it up. They aren't around anymore. That is enough evidence for me. To say that the modern day conceptualization of government rights cannot be different than what came in the past because "[we] didn't just come along with the right answers all of a sudden" strikes me as incorrect relative to the way Western culture has advanced. True representative democracy hasn't existed for much of history, yet a group of very scholarly individuals in the 18th century sat down and codified long-developing principals of government in a way that had never been done before. Where did i say that modern day conceptualization of government rights cannot be different from what came in the past in that quote? I was responding to the Lead's statement that "governments have no Justification for existance" in the post before. In any event, I hope you were just confused as to the response I was making to Lead. Because, I have already made the point you just followed up with: "TRue representative democracy hasn't existed for much of history, yet a group of very scholarly individuals in the 18th century sat down and codified long-developing principals of government in a way that had never been done before." And both you and I know that in the US law is based on both British Common Law and French Civic law, though it favors common law. (which is basically what you stated) You may be referring to the french, or the american revolutionaries or both...i dunno. I would argue they both contributed. Hell lets throw in the Magna Carta....I never claimed polygamy would cause anarchy...i claimed no government existence would cause anarchy. Read. Endyss. However, If you are claiming that theoretically Anarchy could become a viable alternative in the future...well I guess you are theoretically correct. There is no physical Law that prevents ideas from being implemented. However, I think it's weakness is that True anarchies aren't really competitive. and life is about competition no matter how advanced our societies become. Opportunistic communities would reorganize and outcompete anarchist ones. Quote:Lead Salad does raise a valid point in that just because polygamy might become legal hardly means people would rush out in droves to collect spouses, just as the same privilege being granted to gays isn't going to cause masses of otherwise heterosexual people to switch sides. Ignoring for a moment all the historical and contemporary examples of polygamy existing and not causing the breakdown of society, many of the practical realities behind what may have been sound historical or evolutionary justifications for avoiding it simply don't exist today. In the modern connected world, there's no reason to think an extremely large family with many children are going to marry and breed with each other. The world population is going to continue to increase regardless of whether governments allow people to decide the manner of their unions, and that decreases "competition for sex." - I already addressed this. I understand the modern era makes alot of the points obsolete. However, I mentioned that it is difficult to erase the foundations laid by thousands of years of one set of conditions, when they only just really changed in the last 100-150 years. Yeah, perhaps Polygamy will return via common law challenges or some great awakening for the need of alot of poontang under your roof. Oh and Lead....there is no better time to be living than right now in the modern era....it's safer and better than its ever been and that is in part to the evolution of governments. Yeah some shit has gone down....but its nothing like the savagery experienced on a day to day basis in the past. Don't knock it too much. We can have a poll if you would like and everybody can decide if they would rather live under a modern western government....or an more ancient one. Quote:
"Who the fuck is Leon Switch and why does he know we have a dog?" - Mrs. Giller
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I voted #1 before reading the last addon to #4... I believe people should be able to marry whoever, and how many ever. What other people do is of no concern of mine unless it directly affects me.
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Giller [GwDR wrote:Oh and Lead....there is no better time to be living than right now in the modern era....it's safer and better than its ever been and that is in part to the evolution of governments. Yeah some shit has gone down....but its nothing like the savagery experienced on a day to day basis in the past. Don't knock it too much. We can have a poll if you would like and everybody can decide if they would rather live under a modern western government....or an more ancient one.
I'm not sure why you bring that up, was it relevant to what I said earlier today? Can't remember. But I agree with you. I'd prefer to live with the most civil liberties as possible. I think it's inevitable that in the future we will see a lot more personal freedom, if the trend that started in the enlightenment age were to continue.
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Lead Salad wrote: I'm not sure why you bring that up, was it relevant to what I said earlier today? Can't remember. .
You had mentioned several atrocities and contributed thier origin to modern government models. Quote:
"Who the fuck is Leon Switch and why does he know we have a dog?" - Mrs. Giller
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Giller [GwDR wrote:I already addressed this. I understand the modern era makes alot of the points obsolete. However, I mentioned that it is difficult to erase the foundations laid by thousands of years of one set of conditions, when they only just really changed in the last 100-150 years. Yeah, perhaps Polygamy will return via common law challenges or some great awakening for the need of alot of poontang under your roof. If I misunderstood your historical assertions, then my bad. If your only reason for arguing against polygamy is this above quote then, it seems rather weakly founded. I don't disagree with the "difficulty [of] erasing the foundations laid by thousands of years" if by that you mean the culturally ingrained resistance to it by a majority of people, but that speaks to how hard it would be to accomplish, not a reason not to allow it. Many people weren't terribly happy with Brown v. Board of Education when it first came out, and generational divides be damned there are still plenty of people of our generation that attack homosexuality or oppose gay marriage (or as BadHorsie would say, think it's an "abomination"), but I'd suggest cultural resistance isn't itself a justification for restricting individual rights absent anything else. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Well, I decided to tackle this from a more modern perspective in hopes I can make a more compelling argument. Nobody really else has taken a bite from your proposition...so I am doing this more to just humor you. One of my original points was a resource allocation and scarcity. I will modernize this, but first lets just assume that Love isn't a factor...mostly because its subjective; additionaly lets not consider religious reasons for getting married. I am going to use a male head of household example, not because the reverse isn't plausible, in-fact it would almost certainly exist if allowed, just given history and social organization, I think it more likely that the majority of these arrangements would involve men marrying multiple women. Lets also assume that it has been legal for some time...50-100 years or so. That way the implications are given time to "sink in" and actually manifest as well as for its popularity to increase through both polygamist families succeeding generations, and those people who just jump on board. If you look at marriage as a contract, it makes sense that no individual would willingly enter into the agreement if they didn't believe that they were better off doing so. That said, most women (following the assumptions previously outlined) would be inclined to enter into these relationships with men who have the financial means to actually support the additional burden of taking on multiple wives (marrying up, if you will). To put in more plainly, a woman's preference would naturally be inclined to be the first wife. In most families the first wife is going to have more influence over succeeding wives. Therefore, for a woman to readily accept a second, third, or fourth position means they would still have to feel like the situation is better than the one they COULD get as a first wife with joe-shmoe. I.E. The guy has to have money/power/the means to provide her children or herself with a better life than she can get being married to one guy. Usually these people are wealthy. There is already a significant disparity in wealth in the united states, as Dick is fond of pointing out. Legalization of polygamy would enable wealthy men to support a significant amount of wives...the richest even building "harems" of wives. This may reduce the ability of lower status/less financially sound men to acquire a good wife or , if polygamy really became popular, it could lead to some level of waiting until you are actually attractive enough financially. It would almost certainly increase the perception of the inequality between the classes and lead to some social destabilization as have-not's see the rich not only having all the wealth..but now an abundance of women. Anything that contributes to social instability is not in the best interest of that society, no? Enter governments to protect. Quote:
"Who the fuck is Leon Switch and why does he know we have a dog?" - Mrs. Giller
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Rank: You're gonna stick that where?

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tbqh we should just burn all the fags and this wouldn't be an issue.
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