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Obama not eligible? Options
GreyWolf
#16 Posted: : Wednesday, October 15, 2008 2:37:50 PM
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1&3 are largely correct, there are a couple small points in regards to eminent domain, however.  Personally, I am in favor of it with a strict system of oversight by the public.  Eminent domain should ONLY be used for the good of the community and it is up to the community to decide that. 

2.  Yes, Right to Bare Arms is an outmoded right of citizenship, within reason.  Owning a firearm in your own home, having it registered for your own protection is something which I am in favor of, even if I would never do it myself.  However, that does not follow onto allowing people to own assault weapons in Washington D.C.  The entire reason the second amendment was inserted was to allow people to defend themselves from encroaching federal government.  Since most people choose to ignore the entire text of the second amendment, I'll post it here.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

From the wording of the ENTIRE amendment, its clear that the entire reason this was put in, examining historical context, was to allow the states to resist a corrupt federal government (Which we do have).

Now the reason that this is COMPLETELY outmoded is because there is very little ability for a single individual or even a state run militia to defend themselves against the federal government and the full weight of the U.S. Military.  It provides a false sense of manhood and security against the government.  Allowing for people to own automatic and semi-automatic weapons serves no one.  There is NO purpose to own them and no reason you can't have more strict regulation and registration of weapons.  The only reason the right to bear arms still is such an issue is because politicians make it so.  Republicans take any attempt to register weapons as a move to outlaw all weapons but that is simply not the case.  There is no need to outlaw all weapons but more stringent government controls on them are needed.



Ok, in regards to less spending and less taxing......46 cents out of every dollar goes toward the military.  I see this as one of the largest "pork" areas of spending, cut there and spend the  money on social welfare programs.  Cut 2% from the annual military budget and you could provide base health insurance for every single American.  Just to compare....European countries which have similar taxation rates provide more than 5x the average social benefits per citizen than we benefit from in the U.S.  So yeah, I agree that we can cut  funding from many, many programs, but I disagree with your assertion that taxation is the problem....Its where the money taxed is going.  If it actually went back to the benefit of the people who paid it (Including you) then it wouldn't be a problem, but it isn't.  So fight to change that.


My reference to failed free-market policies was not JUST referring to the current crisis, but to consequences on the rest of the world, the widening gap between the rich and poor, the social problems created by companies moving plants overseas....etc etc etc....In regards to the current crisis, the government should not have gotten involved, but keep in mind who was responsible for the initial policies.  The insured loans which you refer to were put in place by politicians attempting to cater to the free market by encouraging growth.  This insurance was lobbied for endlessly by, well, lobbyists for these companies.  The government should never have caved to this, but oh well.....
Suffers from the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency — nay — the very existence of George W. Bush

AKA

Bush Derangement Syndrome

endyss
#17 Posted: : Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:49:55 PM
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GreyWolf wrote:
2.  Yes, Right to Bare Arms is an outmoded right of citizenship, within reason. 
...
There is no need to outlaw all weapons but more stringent government controls on them are needed.

Well, the Supreme Court disagrees with you.  Also, the law in DC that was overturned was a handgun ban that made it effectively impossible to own a handgun at all within the city limits, not assault weapons.  I'm not really wanting to turn this into a debate on the topic, but the term "assault weapons" is incredibly vague and has been used to refer to many different types of firearms, including normal semi-automatic handguns that simply hold more than x number of rounds.


GreyWolf wrote:
Ok, in regards to less spending and less taxing......46 cents out of every dollar goes toward the military.  I'm not sure where you got this number... if you include "mandatory"/non-discretionary gvt spending (as you should, since it's by itself eventually going to overwhelm any amount of tax revenue we can collect), military spending accounts for about 20%.  But if you don't, you're looking at like 54% on military spending (Source).  Either way, we both agree we shouldn't be spending so much on the military, though I'm sure for different reasons.  I see this as one of the largest "pork" areas of spending, cut there and spend the  money on social welfare programs.  Cut 2% from the annual military budget and you could provide base health insurance for every single American.  Just to compare....European countries which have similar taxation rates provide more than 5x the average social benefits per citizen than we benefit from in the U.S.  So yeah, I agree that we can cut  funding from many, many programs, but I disagree with your assertion that taxation is the problem....Its where the money taxed is going.  If it actually went back to the benefit of the people who paid it (Including you) then it wouldn't be a problem, but it isn't.  So fight to change that.  I'd just point out that you can argue the military does benefit everyone since everyone is protected by it, or that tax money spent on "base health insurance" is benefiting the people who pay the lionshare of tax revenue far less than those that pay no taxes, but I'd rather just stick to my guns (no pun intended) that the best use of tax money is not to collect it in the first place.



GreyWolf wrote:
My reference to failed free-market policies was not JUST referring to the current crisis, but to consequences on the rest of the world, the widening gap between the rich and poor, the social problems created by companies moving plants overseas....etc etc etc....In regards to the current crisis, the government should not have gotten involved, but keep in mind who was responsible for the initial policies.  The insured loans which you refer to were put in place by politicians attempting to cater to the free market by encouraging growth.  This insurance was lobbied for endlessly by, well, lobbyists for these companies.  The government should never have caved to this, but oh well.....

Glossing past your charactizations of the global financial market, the results of a merit-based free market, and globalization (the last of which could be said to be raising the global standard of living through free market economics far more than any government social program could ever hope to), I'll focus on your statements about the cause of the current crisis.  The government wasn't "catering to the free market by encouraging growth" at all!  It all started with the Community Reinvestment Act in 1977, when the government incentivized banks to give mortgages to "communities of color" that they otherwise wouldn't have.  It required banks to lend some percentage of its overall mortgages to the lowest income group in whatever communities it was lending in, regardless of ability to pay.  The penalties for not doing so were stiff fines, so companies predictably weighed the cost of A versus B and went with that they thought would cost them less in the long run.  This created more risk for the companies resulting in higher lending fees passed on to their non-subprime customers.

This problem got compounded as the years wore on by increasing home prices and the implicit government backing of institutions like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.  In the 1990s, the Clinton administration increased the requirements to get a satisfactory rating under the CFA, including assessments based on income and race.  The Bush administration relaxed the enforcement of the CFA (which is what largely contributes to the perception that it was deregulation that caused the problems), but they dealt mainly with how different banks got categorized and their incumbent requirements and didn't get to the root of the problem.  The whole thing became a global crisis because of how banks package up and sell "shares" of mortgages to each other, in and out of the US.  When it became clear that the CRA was ultimately a house of cards, banks around the world realized they were stuck holding nearly worthless paper, panic ensued, and here we are today.

If you think this debacle is at all a reflection on the free market at work, then I highly encourage you to read through the CRA's Wikipedia entry and tell me how that reflects anything but a regulatory nightmare.

This crisis was caused by "liberal"-minded people's welfare-state-oriented handouts without regard to the financial consequences.  It may be kind-hearted and benevolent to want everyone to own a home, but banks turn down loans for a reason: they don't believe the debtor will be able to pay it back.  Screw with that and you're asking for trouble.


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Rikaelus
#18 Posted: : Wednesday, October 15, 2008 5:52:45 PM
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The second amendment is now a joke.
I'm a firm believer (and I believe Jefferson implied) that the second amendment is as much to protect people from each other as it is to give them the means to one day fight an oppressive government. I seriously doubt they had nukes, battleships, and stealth bombers in mind as the government's weapons of the future; they probably thought that individuals could own the same weapons of war the government owned - or at least within a reasonable margin.

trigot
#19 Posted: : Wednesday, October 15, 2008 6:01:17 PM
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In reference to Mcains citizenship..maybe i am ignorant but doesn't Than fact both of your parents are natural born citizens it doesn't matter where you are born if they are both already citizens?
endyss
#20 Posted: : Wednesday, October 15, 2008 6:24:16 PM
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trigot wrote:
In reference to Mcains citizenship..maybe i am ignorant but doesn't Than fact both of your parents are natural born citizens it doesn't matter where you are born if they are both already citizens?

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
John McCain, who ran for the Republican party nomination in 2000 and is the Republican nominee in 2008, was born at the Coco Solo U.S. military base in the Panama Canal Zone to U.S. parents. Although the Panama Canal Zone was not considered to be part of the United States, federal law states: "Any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States."  The law that conferred this status took effect on August 4, 1937, one year after John McCain was born — albeit with retroactive effect, resulting in McCain being declared a U.S. citizen.


HolyJaw wrote:
In the end, everything Endyss said.


Lead Salad
#21 Posted: : Wednesday, October 15, 2008 6:33:54 PM
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trigot wrote:
In reference to Mcains citizenship..maybe i am ignorant but doesn't Than fact both of your parents are natural born citizens it doesn't matter where you are born if they are both already citizens?


Yes. That makes you a citizen. I was born in Canada but I am an american citizen for this reason. However, the President rule states that you have to be born in America.
Rikaelus
#22 Posted: : Wednesday, October 15, 2008 6:49:58 PM
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Lead Salad wrote:
trigot wrote:
In reference to Mcains citizenship..maybe i am ignorant but doesn't Than fact both of your parents are natural born citizens it doesn't matter where you are born if they are both already citizens?


Yes. That makes you a citizen. I was born in Canada but I am an american citizen for this reason. However, the President rule states that you have to be born in America.


Well, there's this amendment:

The requirements for citizenship and the very definition thereof have changed since the Constitution was ratified in 1788. Congress first recognized the citizenship of children born to U.S. parents overseas on March 26, 1790, under the first naturalization law: "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens." (See ref. for the Act of 1795)

So if you want to take that, then yes, McCain is a "natural born citizen". Obama's mother was a US citizen, as well, therefor so should Obama - whether he was born in Hawaii or outside US soil.

trigot
#23 Posted: : Friday, October 17, 2008 7:29:40 PM
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thanks for the clarification.. Palins husband was at my job today. kinda cool.
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