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Rank: Fecal Impaction For the Win!

Groups: {pDs} Member, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/27/2007 Posts: 1,625 Points: 2,067 Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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Rank: Coathanger Abortion

Groups: {pDs} Member, Server Admin
Joined: 5/17/2006 Posts: 3,487 Points: 1,990 Location: Undisclosed Location
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This does not make me think. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.  
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Rank: Taco Technician

Groups: Registered User, {pDs} Member
Joined: 5/9/2006 Posts: 3,948 Points: 3,636 Location: Hi-Five City
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LOL! Since when do people flee Norway for our "superiour" healthcare system?
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Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Newsie, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/6/2007 Posts: 987 Points: 783
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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:This does not make me think. Haha, thanks Dick. I knew exactly what it was going to say after seeing your post. Of course, why bother talking about what the guy says when you can just dismiss it all? I wholeheartedly agree with what he says in the first half, on economic policy. I think his not demonizing of the rich will probably turn off a lot of people already indoctrinated into class warfare, though the things he says are correct. And Lead, regardless of what he's saying about people fleeing one direction or the other for each country's respective healthcare system, I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why competition is a bad thing (except that it means some groups can/will fail; and you know, we can't let that happen in our government-mandated generosity). I generally agree with his foreign policy view, though he slides into "Republicans = good, Democrats = bad" towards the end. He's spot on about the Democrats consistent pandering to poor people, promising the moon, when in reality if their policies actually raised people up it would ultimately damage their base, but the Republicans want power just as much. I just happen to generally agree with their methods a bit more, but I break ranks when "conservatism" starts to mean "traditional values" and government legislating morality. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Rank: Fecal Impaction For the Win!
Groups: Ogamer, Registered User
Joined: 5/9/2006 Posts: 1,666 Points: 2,478 Location: La Habra, Orange, CA
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endyss wrote: I break ranks when "conservatism" starts to mean "traditional values" and government legislating morality. Oh my God, Endyss says something I can relate to! silverwasp wrote:Be careful what you wish for... I have 10 younger siblings and I am only 20....
Yes.... Same parents WarMachine wrote:meh...maybe if he hadn't been handed a burning house he could have done great things, but right now he has won the Prize for what? Damage Control?
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Rank: Coathanger Abortion

Groups: {pDs} Member, Server Admin
Joined: 5/17/2006 Posts: 3,487 Points: 1,990 Location: Undisclosed Location
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endyss wrote:Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:This does not make me think. Haha, thanks Dick. I knew exactly what it was going to say after seeing your post. Of course, why bother talking about what the guy says when you can just dismiss it all? If I said "the world is flat" you would dismiss it. That's all this guy is doing, there is no point in talking about it. I listened to about half of it before I got bored, he is not a member of the reality-based community. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.  
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Rank: Polio Power!

Groups: Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 6/14/2008 Posts: 666 Points: 1,416 Location: San Diego
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normally I'd vote that dick's a little too far left, but I'd agree with him this time.
A paid actor that appears to be "trying to be blacker" hyping for McCain just looked....desperate. I agree with the republican view of socially provided healthcare as a bad thing, but this video was so poor I'm tempted to agree with Obama just to disagree with this guy.
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Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Newsie, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/6/2007 Posts: 987 Points: 783
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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:If I said "the world is flat" you would dismiss it. That's all this guy is doing, there is no point in talking about it. I listened to about half of it before I got bored, he is not a member of the reality-based community. You gave up trying to defend your dismissal of free market competition, so I don't know why I'd think you'd do anything different when someone else argues it. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Rank: Fecal Impaction For the Win!

Groups: {pDs} Member, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/27/2007 Posts: 1,625 Points: 2,067 Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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Sorry about that guys. I did not want to start a fight.
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Rank: Coathanger Abortion

Groups: {pDs} Member, Server Admin
Joined: 5/17/2006 Posts: 3,487 Points: 1,990 Location: Undisclosed Location
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endyss wrote:Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:If I said "the world is flat" you would dismiss it. That's all this guy is doing, there is no point in talking about it. I listened to about half of it before I got bored, he is not a member of the reality-based community. You gave up trying to defend your dismissal of free market competition, so I don't know why I'd think you'd do anything different when someone else argues it. Turning me into a straw-man? I don't dismiss markets, they are clearly good at certain types of things (haven't we been over this?) and often are the best solution (and occasionally, even totally unregulated markets are the best solution!). I don't think ensuring a just health care system is problem that can be answered by the free market, this idiots "arguments" do nothing to convince me otherwise. I think that you should look up who has the best health care system in the world and look at how they have it set up. You may be surprised that the socialist bogeyman has a bit of le bon marché involved, but it's part of a multi-layered system designed to maximize the distribution of health care to the unhealthy rather than the accumulation of unhealthy people's money. That is precisely the kind of system I would like to see in the US, and considering that we spend more per capita for such substandard shit I think we can one-up them easily. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.  
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Rank: Taco Technician

Groups: Registered User, {pDs} Member
Joined: 5/9/2006 Posts: 3,948 Points: 3,636 Location: Hi-Five City
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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:endyss wrote:Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:If I said "the world is flat" you would dismiss it. That's all this guy is doing, there is no point in talking about it. I listened to about half of it before I got bored, he is not a member of the reality-based community. You gave up trying to defend your dismissal of free market competition, so I don't know why I'd think you'd do anything different when someone else argues it. Turning me into a straw-man? I don't dismiss markets, they are clearly good at certain types of things (haven't we been over this?) and often are the best solution (and occasionally, even totally unregulated markets are the best solution!). I don't think ensuring a just health care system is problem that can be answered by the free market, this idiots "arguments" do nothing to convince me otherwise. I think that you should look up who has the best health care system in the world and look at how they have it set up. You may be surprised that the socialist bogeyman has a bit of le bon marché involved, but it's part of a multi-layered system designed to maximize the distribution of health care to the unhealthy rather than the accumulation of unhealthy people's money. That is precisely the kind of system I would like to see in the US, and considering that we spend more per capita for such substandard shit I think we can one-up them easily. I think this is the only area in which I agree with Dick. Like I said before, nobody runs away from Canada, Norway, France, the UK, or any other cliche socialized medicine-having nation to ours, because their systems are better.
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Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Newsie, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/6/2007 Posts: 987 Points: 783
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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:Turning me into a straw-man? I don't dismiss markets, they are clearly good at certain types of things (haven't we been over this?) and often are the best solution (and occasionally, even totally unregulated markets are the best solution!). I don't think ensuring a just health care system is problem that can be answered by the free market, this idiots "arguments" do nothing to convince me otherwise. I think that you should look up who has the best health care system in the world and look at how they have it set up. You may be surprised that the socialist bogeyman has a bit of le bon marché involved, but it's part of a multi-layered system designed to maximize the distribution of health care to the unhealthy rather than the accumulation of unhealthy people's money. That is precisely the kind of system I would like to see in the US, and considering that we spend more per capita for such substandard shit I think we can one-up them easily. Okay, I buy that you see healthcare as one of those areas uniquely unsuitable to the free market (like law enforcement and the court system, I assume), but what's really being discussed is how to pay for healthcare, not the actual provision of the service. In those terms, I don't see how the private insurance industry doesn't function as a competitive market. If one carrier chooses not to cover a group, it creates an opportunity for someone else to come in and do it. If you want to compete in an area someone else is already in, you need to offer better services, a lower price, etc. When the government comes in and provides their own alternative, they basically decimate the market by providing something for a far lower price than a private firm can compete with. And they do it by justifying taking money from others by force, most often the ones that use the service the least. They'd be providing a service that an individual would otherwise have to pay for by having someone else's tax dollars doing it, and that's called "income redistribution." It seems to me the primary argument in favor of government-provided healthcare is that some people either can't afford or choose not to sacrifice to pay for the current options, so the government needs to come in and either make it possible or just outright make them do it (Obama's going to mandate individuals acquire healthcare for children, but not adults). Our current system absolutely has its problems, but like with housing it stems from government intervention -- current socialized medicine programs like Medicare and Medicaid, tying medical care to employers decades ago and taking the "burden" off the individual (which is BS since you know it comes out of their paycheck anyway) -- not an inherent failure of the free market. I love it when people demand the government fuck up an area of our life, but because they don't take absolute, totalitarian control and allow some now-broken aspects of the free market to continue function, and then politicians can score points by promising to tighten the government noose even further. It's all going to come down in a house of cards someday, either when the rich teets these programs leech off decide they've had enough or the programs themselves balloon to such a level you can't possibly tax them into solvency. But you go on, keep truckin' for social justice, my friend. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Rank: Coathanger Abortion

Groups: {pDs} Member, Server Admin
Joined: 5/17/2006 Posts: 3,487 Points: 1,990 Location: Undisclosed Location
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endyss wrote:[quote=Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart] In those terms, I don't see how the private insurance industry doesn't function as a competitive market. If one carrier chooses not to cover a group, it creates an opportunity for someone else to come in and do it. If you want to compete in an area someone else is already in, you need to offer better services, a lower price, etc. Part of the problem is that health issues don't really lend themselves to market-based solutions (setting aside the question of rights). If you have cancer or whatever and you try to get health insurance you are pretty well fucked unless you are super rich, even though you are going to be ready to pay every penny you earn to stay alive. It's not like you are really in a position to figure that shit out, and the insurance companies are not on your side. You're talking about applying competition to whether or not people live or die and hoping that market-forces will work out equitably, they haven't. The primary cause of bankruptcy in the US is medical bills. If you get really really sick in this country and you are not rich then the odds are that you are fucked if you survive, and your family is fucked if you don't. We have a primarily market-based health care system and it costs more and delivers less, it makes no sense at all why people think "socialized medicine" is some terrible scary thing when every civilized nation on earth has it and it works better than what we have. It's absurd. The primary argument for "government-provided healthcare" is that it is more efficient. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.  
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Rank: Fuckstick

Groups: Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 1/25/2008 Posts: 901 Points: 528 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Lead Salad wrote:Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:endyss wrote:Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:If I said "the world is flat" you would dismiss it. That's all this guy is doing, there is no point in talking about it. I listened to about half of it before I got bored, he is not a member of the reality-based community. You gave up trying to defend your dismissal of free market competition, so I don't know why I'd think you'd do anything different when someone else argues it. Turning me into a straw-man? I don't dismiss markets, they are clearly good at certain types of things (haven't we been over this?) and often are the best solution (and occasionally, even totally unregulated markets are the best solution!). I don't think ensuring a just health care system is problem that can be answered by the free market, this idiots "arguments" do nothing to convince me otherwise. I think that you should look up who has the best health care system in the world and look at how they have it set up. You may be surprised that the socialist bogeyman has a bit of le bon marché involved, but it's part of a multi-layered system designed to maximize the distribution of health care to the unhealthy rather than the accumulation of unhealthy people's money. That is precisely the kind of system I would like to see in the US, and considering that we spend more per capita for such substandard shit I think we can one-up them easily. I think this is the only area in which I agree with Dick. Like I said before, nobody runs away from Canada, Norway, France, the UK, or any other cliche socialized medicine-having nation to ours, because their systems are better. Not quite, the Medicare system is slowly failing in this time of global economic crisis. Wait lists for even live-saving transplants and operations are through the roof, and many people I know go to America for a paid surgery. I don't blame them. It's better then sleeping on the hospital floor.Win Cookies Awarded: 7 (bawwwwww)
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Rank: Taco Technician

Groups: Registered User, {pDs} Member
Joined: 5/9/2006 Posts: 3,948 Points: 3,636 Location: Hi-Five City
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Yeah, Canada was a bad example. I already knew that, too. Still, the Europeans seem to have it right.
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