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Rank: Dutchess of Doodoo

Groups: Registered User, Server Admin, WDFNews.com Official Mapper
Joined: 6/3/2006 Posts: 2,239 Points: 330 Location: $L
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If abortion is illegal, what should be the punishment for those women who still have abortions? video of some guy asking protesters. Watch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk6t_tdOkwo Thoughts? You wanna take this to Fuck Town? Oh gadzooks, yes!
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Rank: Coathanger Abortion

Groups: {pDs} Member, Server Admin
Joined: 5/17/2006 Posts: 3,487 Points: 1,990 Location: Undisclosed Location
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I think we should stone them in public. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.  
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Rank: Fecal Impaction For the Win!

Groups: {pDs} Member, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 1/1/2008 Posts: 1,647 Points: 2,558 Location: Bainbridge Island, WA
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God damn it! Fuck! I was gonna call my podcast Relevant Radio. And it's taken! By THOSE guys. FUCK. Oh yeah and the video. Imposing your own beliefs and morals on the rest of the country without even considering the consequences and ramifications on the people so affected totally rocks, amirite Safety + Peace
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Rank: Taco Technician

Groups: Registered User, {pDs} Member
Joined: 5/9/2006 Posts: 3,948 Points: 3,636 Location: Hi-Five City
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Abortion isn't really a moral argument; nobody in their right mind thinks killing babies is alright. It really just comes down to people's definition of what a person is.
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Rank: Polio Power!

Groups: Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 6/14/2008 Posts: 666 Points: 1,416 Location: San Diego
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I think killing babies is alright.
The thinning of the herd through infant mortality has been a method of speciation for the entirety of human evolution. Why is it bad?
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Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Newsie, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/6/2007 Posts: 987 Points: 783
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The people shown in that video look remarkably handpicked. All of them have virtually the same "I don't know" answer, and I noticed that the man who the last woman mentioned as maybe having a better answer is never shown. It's a valid question, but the video was obviously assembled to highlight the ignorance of the people involved in the movement. The question itself is valid enough, and I think the answer is simpler than people are making it. Aside from people like ahhhh_crap, most people believe a woman who kills her newborn child is wrong and should be illegal, yet these new mothers have many of the same fears and desires to be free from the obligations of raising a child as a mother who is still pregnant and might get an abortion. The difference (and it's a valid one) is that once a child is born, there are other options to get it away from the mother besides killing it, whereas preventing an abortion forces an unwilling mother to carry the child to term. As with the general issue of abortion itself, I think the answer has to be a comparison of the rights involved -- if you (or society) believe the unborn child is indeed a life that deserves the protection of our justice system, then the abortion issue is contemplating either - Violating the woman's right to choose what to do, whether to remain pregnant until the child can be removed from her presence, or
- Violating the child's right to life.
The tricky issue these days is whether you believe the unborn child is a life, and I think that's the crux of the issue. If you believe it is, then I can't see how a reasonable person could argue that #1 should trump #2. If you believe it's not, then it's very plausible to do so. My only hope is that technology eventually gets to a point where we can sidestep the issue entirely, and come to a place where a woman who no longer wants to carry the unborn child can have it safely removed in a way that it could still grow and fully develop outside her womb. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Rank: Fuckstick

Groups: Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 1/25/2008 Posts: 901 Points: 528 Location: Vancouver, BC
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endyss wrote:My only hope is that technology eventually gets to a point where we can sidestep the issue entirely, and come to a place where a woman who no longer wants to carry the unborn child can have it safely removed in a way that it could still grow and fully develop outside her womb. How about an adoption agency system that isn't impossible for an expecting mother to get in to 9/10 times? Technology is irrelevant here, humanity's maternal nature can take over. Win Cookies Awarded: 7 (bawwwwww)
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Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Newsie, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/6/2007 Posts: 987 Points: 783
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Ciao Time wrote:How about an adoption agency system that isn't impossible for an expecting mother to get in to 9/10 times? Technology is irrelevant here, humanity's maternal nature can take over. Sure, but what if the mother is just 2 months pregnant? Even if the adoption system were 100% perfect, at this point in time the biological mother would have to carry the child with her for another 7 months. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Rank: Polio Power!

Groups: Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 6/14/2008 Posts: 666 Points: 1,416 Location: San Diego
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I agree with your logical deduction process nearly entirely Endyss. The only fallacy I find is a presumption of values. I fail to see the inherent value placed upon the idea of life. Anyone who can explain to me logically where a being who simply manages to task of breathing and haveing a beating heart <and note this will fault this debate as well in consideration to pre-term births/abortions> has an inherent right to life.
Yes most legal systems make a judgement against the taking of anothers life against their wishes, but in the case of newborns and non-borns, who establishes this right? Where does this right come from?
We live in a world that is populated in excess as it is. Nature regularly reminds us of this through "famines", tsunami's and other "disasters." I use the quotation not to mock the idea's, but rather to cast a shadow on the general context of the words. Sending food aids to countries that are lacking of food is considered a noble idea and teaches of the civilization of the human species. It also sustains and increases a population beyond the point of the local food supply. This is not unusual, as the ancient greeks and many others had to trade or wage war for supplies as well. I believe these are good concepts however, to wholesale give away food and sustain/grow populations without the requirement of trade is an error. The quote's around disaster simply implies that the removal of a large biomass may be of benefit to the species even to the detriment of individuals. I would not be so hasty to state the word disaster applies to all of these events.
Yes, I agree with the logic behind the simple 1 trumps 2, or vice versa debate. However I disagree with the debate. Throughout human history, all 6 thousand plus years of it, a child has not been an independant person. Most cultures adopt the teenage years as a boundary point for self-reliance, but almost none contend that a young child, under the age of say 2, is essentially a parasite. Without the mother or a surrogate around, this child is not an indepent. It is the very definition of dependant. I am of the opinion that up to a point of independance the child does not carry the rights of an independant. As such, I can find no fault with the concept of abortion being the choice of the ones who engaged in the conception. The embryo and child does not have rights that trump those of the parents <both of them for that matter> especially not in a society that prides itself upon freedom.
However, I would be rather keen to understand your position, Endyss, on how an non-born ears/inherits/gains the rights that I believe you are of the opinion should protect it from what could constitute murder.
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Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Newsie, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/6/2007 Posts: 987 Points: 783
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You present a fascinating twist on the subject. At the heart of my argument is that there is little distinction between the unborn child's rights and those of a newborn or infant [and thus they should be protected equally]. You take it a step in a different direction to say, "Why protect either of them?" I think most people would find the position a little absurd, but it's still valid enough. You're right that children are dependent, but the reasons for protecting them are pretty sound. Stepping back a second, society prohibits killing another because it unjustly deprives them of a fundamental right, and because society has delegated the right to dole out justice to a central power (the government) with all sorts of requirements of treatment, due process, etc. Those reasons apply equally to children as to adults. Specifically regarding children, even though they may be dependent, society has a policy interest in favor of protecting them because to do otherwise would threaten the survival of the species. Some creatures have evolved such that their offspring are capable of fending for themselves shortly after birth, but without years of protection our children would never reach adulthood. Thus for both equal protection and social policies reasons, most every human culture on earth places a duty on parents to either care for their children or properly discharge their responsibility on someone else. So as to how non-born children gain the right to life, I'd say it's the same way as other, born children: simply by being alive and a human being. I doubt you'll find much support here or elsewhere for the idea that children shouldn't be protected at all, though under that paradigm I'd agree there's nothing to make unborn children more worthy of protection than others. As long as you're going to protect newborn children and infants on the aforementioned grounds, I'd return to the logical #1-vs-#2 conclusion from my previous post. (And yes, I agree with you about global humanitarian aid, at least so far as it comes from a government collecting money from everyone by force and giving it away. If private individuals want to make donations to help another person in the name of charity, though, I'm all for it.) HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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