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Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Newsie, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/6/2007 Posts: 987 Points: 783
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I realize you are trying to encourage people to be medics (and far be it from me to suggest reducing the incentive, we need all the good medics we can get), but I feel the need to raise my concern about the extreme bonus medics receive with a Kill Assist, and the potential effect it could have on the rankings.
Currently, any player getting a kill assist receives a static 5 points (this alone, in my opinion, is too high, since in the higher ranks, the vast majority of kills will only result in a 1-3 point gain, so you are placed in a situation where you always make more by not getting the killing blow -- a little counterintuitive if you ask me). This is the same score given whenever an engineer creates a sentry or dispenser (and don't get me started on the abuse potential there) and to anyone else for destroying the same. Meanwhile, any highly ranked player that plays any other class will always receive 1-3 points for a standard kill, unless they are lucky enough not to actually get the killing blow. So, these classes, medic and engineer, have potential point gain that none of the others do. In the hands of a clever player, those advantages can be put to radically skew the rankings.
And we need not speculate about such a possibility, we can already see it in action! The current top 3 players all have Kill Assist - Medic as either their first or second scoring bonus, with those bonuses devastatingly outpacing anything else. As of this writing, #3 {pDs}DickCheneysMechanicalHeart (an awesome player, I might add) has received 14,980 of his total 19,070 from the bonus; #2 {pDs} WarMachine has received 7,890 (and another 5,245 from plain Kill Assists); and #1 [doop] CRiX 10,510. Through a combination of skill and the current state of the stat system, that #1 player actually now has nearly 31,000 points, 8,000 more than the second down.
I'm worried that the current system too greatly favors certain classes, specifically through the problem of static bonuses. While kill points are based on players' relative rankings, certain actions are given set amounts of points, regardless of how frequently they occur, and Kill Assist - Medic more than all. In terms of solutions, I think the ideal would be that no kill assist should be able to receive more than the actual killer gets. If you absolutely must add another incentive for medics, Kill Assist - Medic could be limited to 2x the amount the killer receives, always with the same 5 point or 10 point cap. If such calculations are not possible, then I'd urge they be reduced to keep the gap being created in the system from widening any further. Normal kill assists should be limited to no more than 1 or 2 points, given their frequency. Lifelong medics (I believe we call them doctors =P ) such as {pDs}DickCheneysMechanicalHeart may worry that there would be no incentive to play a medic if the Kill Assist - Medic bonus is "nerfed," so I'd urge something like 5 static points for that, which would still make it a substantial bonus, but not such that they can incredibly outpace the Heavy they are aiding. Consider this scenario: A high ranking Heavy + Medic combo ubers into a narrow corridor filled with enemies. The medic has survived long enough to get his uber, and the heavy is skilled and mows through 10 opponents. The heavy will receive, on average, 1-2 points per kill depending on rank, so 10-20 total. The medic, however, will receive a static 100 points for his trouble, regardless of ranking. This isn't a problem to anyone else??
Please don't take this as sour grapes, or a commentary on anything but the higher echelons of players, who will be the ones most likely to take any notice at all of the rank structure. As the point distribution climbs and climbs, higher players will receive less and less per normal kill, while the above certain classes will continue to always receive a static 5-10 points. Engineers I am less concerned about, since their bonus gets also distributed to whomever destroys their building, and engineers don't create sentries nearly as often as a medic aids in a kill. Truly, it's their primary job! I agree we need all the medics we can get, but rewarding them with easy access to the top of the ladder isn't something the point system should be about. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Rank: Polio Power!

Groups: {pDs} Member, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 5/19/2006 Posts: 495 Points: 0 Location: Banker's Hill, San Diego
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sounds like someone needs to play a lil less heavy and a lil more medic.
you do realize that the hw, in mowing down those 10 ppl (im sure one or two would give more than 1-2 pts btw), gets the satisfaction of single handedly leveling the other team while the medic sits there with his medigun and watches the fun happen without him. not to mention the fact that everyone is trying to kill him first... its shitty...
Also, every class gets 5 pts for an assist, you can get assists with more than just medic... this is a medic witch hunt. I LOVE having the kill assist at 5. im always killing teh noobs who give 1 pt so its refreshing when someone snakes my kill cuz i get 5 times what i would have gotten.
PLUS! damn son, you need to be more concise. no one wants to read a novel
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Rank: Fecal Impaction For the Win!

Groups: Newsie, Registered User
Joined: 6/16/2006 Posts: 1,301 Points: 1,263
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I don't understand what the big deal about stats is at all. I get pissed playing now because people want to increase stats rather than complete objectives. Usually when I play, I see very little effort in capping and more effort in killing and I usually wind up saying something in frustration... a team-based game shouldn't have stats based on the performance of individuals. People should play certain classes for a balance of winning the round and having fun. However, losing rounds because players buff their stats is such a crappy feeling when you personally have been trying to win yourself.
Stats don't bother me at all though, so whether or not they are on the servers or not is indifferent to me since I can simply play for incentives other than stats. If it were up to me though, I'd only implement stats on completing team-based objectives, like gaurding flags and capture points, gunning down flag carriers, and capping. That would in turn, promote more towards completing the objectives, and since defenses will be stronger on the other team (since stats would be rewarded for defending flags and caps), that would in turn promote the use of more medics and general teamwork. {pDs} Lead Salad: bike why did you change your name Jessica343: so I can get heals {pDs} Lead Salad: oh damn good idea {pDs} Lead Salad has changed their name to {pDs} Lead Salad (is a girl) Jessica343: hahah
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Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Newsie, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/6/2007 Posts: 987 Points: 783
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Gnar wrote:you do realize that the hw, in mowing down those 10 ppl (im sure one or two would give more than 1-2 pts btw), gets the satisfaction of single handedly leveling the other team while the medic sits there with his medigun and watches the fun happen without him. not to mention the fact that everyone is trying to kill him first... its shitty...
I realize that difference, but the rankings should ideally be designed so that two identically skilled players on two different classes would have more or less identical ranks. Factoring in "level of satisfaction" just means that arguably less fun classes have an edge (and so much better for someone who actually enjoys playing a medic)
I didn't mention it before, but I also take issue with this notion that the point system can ever really encourage playing a class. The vast majority of players on the server are never ranked highly enough for this discussion to apply to them, so they don't care about points. So unless you want the highest ranks to be overpopulated with certain classes, it should be balanced for all of them.
Gnar wrote:im always killing teh noobs who give 1 pt so its refreshing when someone snakes my kill cuz i get 5 times what i would have gotten.
Is having your kills get "snaked" something that we should really find "refreshing"?? You make my point for me!
What about the soldier that just gets a bit of rocket splash in a room and gets 5x the points of the guy who dies doing the killing? Or the medic that stands outside the enemy base at 2fort, healing everyone that fires inside and getting 10 points each time one of them lands a kill? People should be rewarded for kill assists and the game naturally tracks them, but taking into consideration all the hundreds of ways one person can kill and one person can assist, I don't believe the "assistant" should be rewarded exponentially more than the "killer."
GivePeaceAChance wrote:I get pissed playing now because people want to increase stats rather than complete objectives. Usually when I play, I see very little effort in capping and more effort in killing and I usually wind up saying something in frustration... a team-based game shouldn't have stats based on the performance of individuals. People should play certain classes for a balance of winning the round and having fun. However, losing rounds because players buff their stats is such a crappy feeling when you personally have been trying to win yourself.
You make an excellent point, and the one thing the points should incentivize more than anything else is the team victory. Individual capture bonuses and individual intel caps just create a rush to be the flag carrier or get on the point at the last second. That's not entirely undesirable, but if the majority of the bonus was team distributed, say 50 team points for a capture and 25 individual instead of the opposite that's currently in effect, I think it would encourage players to complete the objective, instead of just racing to be the single person to do it. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Newsie, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/6/2007 Posts: 987 Points: 783
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Gnar wrote:PLUS! damn son, you need to be more concise. no one wants to read a novel
And btw, the reason the topic is called "Comment on ..." is because it's me airing my thoughts on the topic. If reading more text than will fit in an in-game chat dialogue is more than you can handle, please feel free not to do so. =) HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Rank: The Illuminist

Groups: Administration
Joined: 5/8/2006 Posts: 8,410 Points: 2,875 Location: Seattle
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I welcome all of this discussion. Last time it ended up getting some stuff changed. This time, however, I disagree. Endyss, this started yesterday with some "suspicion of foul play" now turned into a "medics get favored" situation. The constant here is that you're worrying too much about your own place in the stats. We've only been running hlstats for a little over a week. Most players haven't even hit the min rank level in kills. Plus, just tonight while we were playing Dustbowl (and all of GwDR were on the same team) there was a lack of medics on the attacking team half the time. I believe once the stats even out and regulars start playing more we will see a stat fluctuation. While the medic gets 5 points a kill, the heavy he's powering, if low enough, will get 25 points per kill depending on the level of player he is attacking. Either way, I am all for more medics and less snipers and soldiers, for example. But I'm open to a debate.
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Rank: Dutchess of Doodoo

Groups: Registered User, Server Admin, WDFNews.com Official Mapper
Joined: 6/3/2006 Posts: 2,239 Points: 330 Location: $L
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1 point per kill. 100 points for team for capping the flag /stats You wanna take this to Fuck Town? Oh gadzooks, yes!
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Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Newsie, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/6/2007 Posts: 987 Points: 783
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I'm not trying to argue that "medics get favored" out of thin air, the proof is in the rankings, and what it is that is netting players the most points. As I said, if it is your goal that any competitive, highly ranked players should play medic in order to stay competitive, then the current system will likely encourage that. I realize this topic might sound as though I am just worrying about my own place, but I assure you that my only goal is that no class (regardless of who is playing it) has an advantage.
bitchmaker wrote:I never pay any attention to the points because when you boil it down I play to have fun and winning is more fun than any stat ranking. Also last I checked there are restrictions on how many people play medics. So if points are that important to someone they can always switch and play medic.
Absolutely, I play to have fun, but there's no point in posting to comment "Man, I'm having fun playing tonight!" The post is my effort to have as fair a system to all classes as possible. And you're right, if all I was concerned with is my own rank, it'd be a simple matter to just switch to medic exclusively, and rack up the points. The imbalances can serve me as well as anyone else, but I was arguing that's not the way it should work. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Rank: You're gonna stick that where?

Groups: {pDs} Member, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 5/18/2006 Posts: 280 Points: 24 Location: Los
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We should have a point donation program. I'll donate all my points to whoever wants them. I play just about every class depending on what the team needs at the moment. I never pay any attention to the points because when you boil it down I play to have fun and winning is more fun than any stat ranking. Also last I checked there are restrictions on how many people play medics. So if points are that important to someone they can always switch and play medic. {pDs}BelligerentPimp wrote: No using the word "fucktard" unless you are refering to TonyRWC or Youngripark.j2. WDF? wrote:go fuck yourself hanukkah style.
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Rank: The Illuminist

Groups: Administration
Joined: 5/8/2006 Posts: 8,410 Points: 2,875 Location: Seattle
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Ok, I've looked this over... heard both sides. I am willing to drop kill assist points to 3. That's it. I personally thing the scoring is fine the way it is right now. However, if you guys are so hung up on the medics taking the top ranks (where I think they should be) then I'll lower it by two points.
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Rank: Dutchess of Doodoo

Groups: Registered User, Server Admin, WDFNews.com Official Mapper
Joined: 6/3/2006 Posts: 2,239 Points: 330 Location: $L
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Oh yeah, forgot to mention you can just uber each person on your team for half a second and it gives you an invuln bonus for each one. That 5 pts. for each person. Oh Noes Doctorz bee stealin mah rankz! Outlaw ze uber!! You wanna take this to Fuck Town? Oh gadzooks, yes!
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Rank: Coathanger Abortion

Groups: {pDs} Member, Server Admin
Joined: 5/17/2006 Posts: 3,487 Points: 1,990 Location: Undisclosed Location
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WDF? wrote:Ok, I've looked this over... heard both sides.
I am willing to drop kill assist points to 3. That's it. I personally thing the scoring is fine the way it is right now. However, if you guys are so hung up on the medics taking the top ranks (where I think they should be) then I'll lower it by two points. I think it is fine where it is. I also think we don't have enough people playing medic most of the time, and that it's a crappy class to statwhore since everyone is always hunting you and yelling at you to heal them and you spend the entire time dodging like a maniac and trying to target that bastard pyro who wont stand still long enough for you to heal them. You could make the kill assist points go up to 10 or down to 1 and I don't think it will significantly change who plays medics or how high people who play medics get ranked. I have barely played medic at all recently because I got so worn out doing it. It seems like some people think you should only get points for killing people is the real issue? Or at least that killing people is more valuable. I'm wondering if people actually do behave differently based on points awarded though? I didn't think so, but if that is the case then maybe the kill assist points should go up to encourage more people to play as medics since it seems to be such an unpopular class most of the time. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.  
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Rank: Jimmy Hat Jester

Groups: Registered User
Joined: 11/4/2006 Posts: 665 Points: 21 Location: Los Angeles
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endyss has a great point and i love how objective he looks at it.. The bottom line is the stats need to be completely balanced, meaning that if a person is worried about rank, he/she should feel comfortable at all character types. In other words each player type may score differently but all score more or less at the same rate. If medics tend to score easier that seems a little unfair. Code:<a href="http://www.sloganizer.net/en/" target="_blank" title="Sloganizer - the slogan generator"><img src="http://www.sloganizer.net/en/image,Sloganizer,white,black.png" border="0" alt="generated by sloganizer.net" title="This slogan was generated by sloganizer.net"/></a>
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Rank: Coathanger Abortion

Groups: {pDs} Member, Server Admin
Joined: 5/17/2006 Posts: 3,487 Points: 1,990 Location: Undisclosed Location
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tonyrwc1 wrote:endyss has a great point and i love how objective he looks at it..
The bottom line is the stats need to be completely balanced, meaning that if a person is worried about rank, he/she should feel comfortable at all character types. In other words each player type may score differently but all score more or less at the same rate. If medics tend to score easier that seems a little unfair. The problem with that is that it's impossible. How you score depends on the circumstances. Assuming your own skill is constant, it still varies depending on the skill of your enemies. Assuming your own skill is constant and their skills are constant, it is going to vary on the map objectives. Assuming your skills, your enemies skills, and the map objectives are constant, it is still going to vary based on the balance of classes. It keeps on going. I can go up 1000 points in one map and then play that same map with the same class and lost 300 points. There is no way you can ever create a points system where every class will advance at the same rate. Sometimes an engie is going to earn more points than a heavy, sometimes a scout is going to earn more than a sniper. It all depends on the circumstances. Part of the fun of TF2 is figuring out the rock to your enemies scissors. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.  
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Rank: The Illuminist

Groups: Administration
Joined: 5/8/2006 Posts: 8,410 Points: 2,875 Location: Seattle
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Anything we decide to change here will not go into effect for at least another week. I want to get a good amount of players taking points from the highers before we tweak anything.
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