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Lead Salad
#1 Posted: : Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:23:55 PM
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Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

Convince me objectivism is wrong. Gogogo
Cantrip
#2 Posted: : Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:38:55 PM
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Lead Salad wrote:
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

Convince me objectivism is wrong. Gogogo


That it is wrong? GTFO, fucking commie.
You should be more like Cantrip.



Twitchy: "I pulled a Cantrip . . ."
GivePeaceAChance: "If the Tempest had nipples, I'd pinch that shit."
Xylicon: "I'm about to deliver my [Richard] in your face for posting that stupid shit. "
WDF?: "He keeps reaming me... night after night... I'm rather sore."
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llenta: "cantrip, you fail!!!"
Filliam H. Muffman: "i'm on top of dick"
HeXploiT
#3 Posted: : Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:42:44 PM
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I'm not going to debate...but you made me think of Ecclesiastes

 

Ecclesiastes 1

Everything Is Meaningless
 1 The words of the Teacher, [a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:

 2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!"
       says the Teacher.
       "Utterly meaningless!
       Everything is meaningless."

 3 What does man gain from all his labor
       at which he toils under the sun?

 4 Generations come and generations go,
       but the earth remains forever.

 5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
       and hurries back to where it rises.

 6 The wind blows to the south
       and turns to the north;
       round and round it goes,
       ever returning on its course.

 7 All streams flow into the sea,
       yet the sea is never full.
       To the place the streams come from,
       there they return again.

 8 All things are wearisome,
       more than one can say.
       The eye never has enough of seeing,
       nor the ear its fill of hearing.

 9 What has been will be again,
       what has been done will be done again;
       there is nothing new under the sun.

 10 Is there anything of which one can say,
       "Look! This is something new"?
       It was here already, long ago;
       it was here before our time.

 11 There is no remembrance of men of old,
       and even those who are yet to come
       will not be remembered
       by those who follow.

Wisdom Is Meaningless
 12 I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 I devoted myself to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. What a heavy burden God has laid on men! 14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

 15 What is twisted cannot be straightened;
       what is lacking cannot be counted.

 16 I thought to myself, "Look, I have grown and increased in wisdom more than anyone who has ruled over Jerusalem before me; I have experienced much of wisdom and knowledge." 17 Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind.

 18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
       the more knowledge, the more grief.

 

Ecclesiastes 2

Pleasures Are Meaningless
 1 I thought in my heart, "Come now, I will test you with pleasure to find out what is good." But that also proved to be meaningless. 2 "Laughter," I said, "is foolish. And what does pleasure accomplish?" 3 I tried cheering myself with wine, and embracing folly—my mind still guiding me with wisdom. I wanted to see what was worthwhile for men to do under heaven during the few days of their lives.

 4 I undertook great projects: I built houses for myself and planted vineyards. 5 I made gardens and parks and planted all kinds of fruit trees in them. 6 I made reservoirs to water groves of flourishing trees. 7 I bought male and female slaves and had other slaves who were born in my house. I also owned more herds and flocks than anyone in Jerusalem before me. 8 I amassed silver and gold for myself, and the treasure of kings and provinces. I acquired men and women singers, and a harem [a] as well—the delights of the heart of man. 9 I became greater by far than anyone in Jerusalem before me. In all this my wisdom stayed with me.

 10 I denied myself nothing my eyes desired;
       I refused my heart no pleasure.
       My heart took delight in all my work,
       and this was the reward for all my labor.

 11 Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done
       and what I had toiled to achieve,
       everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind;
       nothing was gained under the sun.

Wisdom and Folly Are Meaningless
 12 Then I turned my thoughts to consider wisdom,
       and also madness and folly.
       What more can the king's successor do
       than what has already been done?

 13 I saw that wisdom is better than folly,
       just as light is better than darkness.

 14 The wise man has eyes in his head,
       while the fool walks in the darkness;
       but I came to realize
       that the same fate overtakes them both.

 15 Then I thought in my heart,
       "The fate of the fool will overtake me also.
       What then do I gain by being wise?"
       I said in my heart,
       "This too is meaningless."

 16 For the wise man, like the fool, will not be long remembered;
       in days to come both will be forgotten.
       Like the fool, the wise man too must die!

Toil Is Meaningless
 17 So I hated life, because the work that is done under the sun was grievous to me. All of it is meaningless, a chasing after the wind. 18 I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. 19 And who knows whether he will be a wise man or a fool? Yet he will have control over all the work into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. This too is meaningless. 20 So my heart began to despair over all my toilsome labor under the sun. 21 For a man may do his work with wisdom, knowledge and skill, and then he must leave all he owns to someone who has not worked for it. This too is meaningless and a great misfortune. 22 What does a man get for all the toil and anxious striving with which he labors under the sun? 23 All his days his work is pain and grief; even at night his mind does not rest. This too is meaningless.

 24 A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, 25 for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment? 26 To the man who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

 

Ecclesiastes 3

A Time for Everything
 1 There is a time for everything,
       and a season for every activity under heaven:

 2 a time to be born and a time to die,
       a time to plant and a time to uproot,

 3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
       a time to tear down and a time to build,

 4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
       a time to mourn and a time to dance,

 5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
       a time to embrace and a time to refrain,

 6 a time to search and a time to give up,
       a time to keep and a time to throw away,

 7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
       a time to be silent and a time to speak,

 8 a time to love and a time to hate,
       a time for war and a time for peace.

 9 What does the worker gain from his toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on men. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live. 13 That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil—this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him.

 15 Whatever is has already been,
       and what will be has been before;
       and God will call the past to account. [a]

 16 And I saw something else under the sun:
       In the place of judgment—wickedness was there,
       in the place of justice—wickedness was there.

 17 I thought in my heart,
       "God will bring to judgment
       both the righteous and the wicked,
       for there will be a time for every activity,
       a time for every deed."

 18 I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath [b] ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal [c] goes down into the earth?"

 22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?

Ecclesiastes 4

Oppression, Toil, Friendlessness
 1 Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun:
       I saw the tears of the oppressed—
       and they have no comforter;
       power was on the side of their oppressors—
       and they have no comforter.

 2 And I declared that the dead,
       who had already died,
       are happier than the living,
       who are still alive.

 3 But better than both
       is he who has not yet been,
       who has not seen the evil
       that is done under the sun.

 4 And I saw that all labor and all achievement spring from man's envy of his neighbor. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

 5 The fool folds his hands
       and ruins himself.

 6 Better one handful with tranquillity
       than two handfuls with toil
       and chasing after the wind.

 7 Again I saw something meaningless under the sun:

 8 There was a man all alone;
       he had neither son nor brother.
       There was no end to his toil,
       yet his eyes were not content with his wealth.
       "For whom am I toiling," he asked,
       "and why am I depriving myself of enjoyment?"
       This too is meaningless—
       a miserable business!

 9 Two are better than one,
       because they have a good return for their work:

 10 If one falls down,
       his friend can help him up.
       But pity the man who falls
       and has no one to help him up!

 11 Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.
       But how can one keep warm alone?

 12 Though one may be overpowered,
       two can defend themselves.
       A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

Advancement Is Meaningless
 13 Better a poor but wise youth than an old but foolish king who no longer knows how to take warning. 14 The youth may have come from prison to the kingship, or he may have been born in poverty within his kingdom. 15 I saw that all who lived and walked under the sun followed the youth, the king's successor. 16 There was no end to all the people who were before them. But those who came later were not pleased with the successor. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

Continued...







Lead Salad
#4 Posted: : Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:47:57 PM
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Cantrip wrote:
Lead Salad wrote:
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

Convince me objectivism is wrong. Gogogo


That it is wrong? GTFO, fucking commie.


Objectivism is directly opposed to communism because it is strictly a free-market based ideology. Objectivism, for those who don't know, is Ayn Rand's philosophy of the world that combines the political theory of laissez-faire capitalism with the moral theory that reality is exclusive from the mind and that morality is completely objective.
Gunslinger
#5 Posted: : Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:49:12 PM
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Lead Salad wrote:
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?


'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.'
In an hour of Darkness a blind man is the best guide. In an age of Insanity look to the madman to lead the way.

Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart
#6 Posted: : Friday, August 08, 2008 12:17:07 AM
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Taxes are the price of civilization.
Razor wrote:
Killing people is good therapy.


Lead Salad
#7 Posted: : Friday, August 08, 2008 12:19:55 AM
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I'm seeing a lot of glib statements and little arguments. Come on, people.
Cantrip
#8 Posted: : Friday, August 08, 2008 2:03:58 AM
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Lead Salad wrote:
Cantrip wrote:
Lead Salad wrote:
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

Convince me objectivism is wrong. Gogogo


That it is wrong? GTFO, fucking commie.


Objectivism is directly opposed to communism because it is strictly a free-market based ideology. Objectivism, for those who don't know, is Ayn Rand's philosophy of the world that combines the political theory of laissez-faire capitalism with the moral theory that reality is exclusive from the mind and that morality is completely objective.


Wait, you said convince you objectivism is wrong, meaning prove that laissez-faire is wrong.  I happen to think it is correct, the opposite being communism, hence we are in agreement there Lead and my calling you a commie was a further dig in that direction.

Without any incentive to reap the rewards of your physical efforts or mental cleverness, there's no incentive to excel.  There is no move toward happiness in a communist system because the reality is already defined by the system itself.

No, we're in agreement.  Now, GTFO.
You should be more like Cantrip.



Twitchy: "I pulled a Cantrip . . ."
GivePeaceAChance: "If the Tempest had nipples, I'd pinch that shit."
Xylicon: "I'm about to deliver my [Richard] in your face for posting that stupid shit. "
WDF?: "He keeps reaming me... night after night... I'm rather sore."
GivePeaceAChance: "OMG MY NIPS ARE HARD"
llenta: "cantrip, you fail!!!"
Filliam H. Muffman: "i'm on top of dick"
Lead Salad
#9 Posted: : Friday, August 08, 2008 2:25:47 AM
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Ok then. Anyone else?
Ciao Time
#10 Posted: : Friday, August 08, 2008 2:26:20 AM
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Gunslinger wrote:
Lead Salad wrote:
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?


'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.'


Nice use of the Bioshock quote.
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HolyJaw
#11 Posted: : Friday, August 08, 2008 4:18:13 AM
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Lead Salad wrote:
Objectivism is directly opposed to communism because it is strictly a free-market based ideology. Objectivism, for those who don't know, is Ayn Rand's philosophy of the world that combines the political theory of laissez-faire capitalism with the moral theory that reality is exclusive from the mind and that morality is completely objective.


How about from somebody who's currently reading Atlas Shrugged?

Rand strongly pushes the idea that every man is, in fact, "entitled to the sweat of his brow", that those who fight otherwise are, in the extreme, merely moochers, moochers who live off of the expertise of others. Their one founding argument is "If need, then right" as in "Ms. Taggart, you will have the Comet running three times a day with our without a full crew" "But how am I supposed to staff it when you chased all my employees away?" "Because I need to be in San Francisco by the end of the week."

The end result is damnation of creativity and a push for people to do the WORST they can, not the BEST. Slowly the world order breaks down because the hard work of one man ends up benefiting the lax of the next three men. If you find this to be right, then you've obviously never felt the exultation of achievement, and just enjoy mooching more than acting.
silverwasp wrote:
Be careful what you wish for... I have 10 younger siblings and I am only 20....

Yes.... Same parents


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meh...maybe if he hadn't been handed a burning house he could have done great things, but right now he has won the Prize for what? Damage Control?
Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart
#12 Posted: : Friday, August 08, 2008 12:07:58 PM
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Arguing about Objectivism with a Randoid is a waste of time. It's a fantasy ideology for megalomaniacs, narcissists, sociopaths, and greedy smart asses. In the real world the invisible hand is more likely to pick your pocket than jerk you off unless it's shackled to society's oar. 
Razor wrote:
Killing people is good therapy.


RichardAwesome
#13 Posted: : Friday, August 08, 2008 12:40:46 PM
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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:
Arguing about Objectivism with a Randoid is a waste of time. It's a fantasy ideology for megalomaniacs, narcissists, sociopaths, and greedy smart asses. In the real world the invisible hand is more likely to pick your pocket than jerk you off unless it's shackled to society's oar. 


Sounds about as much of a fantasy as everyone holding hands and "working for the betterment of mankind" without any personal gain.
Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart
#14 Posted: : Friday, August 08, 2008 12:57:03 PM
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RichardAwesome wrote:
Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:
Arguing about Objectivism with a Randoid is a waste of time. It's a fantasy ideology for megalomaniacs, narcissists, sociopaths, and greedy smart asses. In the real world the invisible hand is more likely to pick your pocket than jerk you off unless it's shackled to society's oar. 


Sounds about as much of a fantasy as everyone holding hands and "working for the betterment of mankind" without any personal gain.


Except no one actually seriously believes that as far as I can tell except maybe a few old hippies and honestly most of them are pretty fucking jaded, whereas Randoids are almost as bad as Scientologists when it comes to being True Believers.  
Razor wrote:
Killing people is good therapy.


RichardAwesome
#15 Posted: : Friday, August 08, 2008 1:00:40 PM
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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:
RichardAwesome wrote:
Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:
Arguing about Objectivism with a Randoid is a waste of time. It's a fantasy ideology for megalomaniacs, narcissists, sociopaths, and greedy smart asses. In the real world the invisible hand is more likely to pick your pocket than jerk you off unless it's shackled to society's oar. 


Sounds about as much of a fantasy as everyone holding hands and "working for the betterment of mankind" without any personal gain.


Except no one actually seriously believes that as far as I can tell except maybe a few old hippies and honestly most of them are pretty fucking jaded, whereas Randoids are almost as bad as Scientologists when it comes to being True Believers.  


Agreed.  Ideals are nothing to rely on.  I'm comfortable with the happy medium, even if I like the ideals.
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