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Rank: Taco Technician

Groups: Registered User, {pDs} Member
Joined: 5/9/2006 Posts: 3,948 Points: 3,636 Location: Hi-Five City
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I've been thinking a lot about this lately. I've come to the conclusion that a lot of what's wrong with America is attributable to the fact that so many of us want instant gratification.. everywhere. Although the information age has brought us much jubilation, it has also raised a generation of slackers. When you're able to obtain any bit of information, entertainment, food, or communication almost instantaneously, what does that tell you about every other aspect of your life? The need for instant gratification seeps into them. I've noticed this trend in people around me, I've also unfortunately noticed it in myself and I've been trying to curb it, and I've analyzed the current social and political landscape and I think that if you really break it down, it's the root cause of some major problems. Here's what I think is wrong with America: Apathy: Obviously it has always been a problem but more so today. The majority of people in this country are of the mentality that if it doesn't concern them, or if it doesn't directly benefit themselves, it's not worth their time. Probably the most unnerving example of this is the failure of the Government to aggressively address the Sudanese government and the Janjaweet for the crimes they have committed against the people of Darfur. This isn't new, either, the Government also failed to intervene in Rwanda back during Clinton's administration. Another example would be the fact that nearly half the country doesn't vote. Lack of ingenuity: Back during the industrial revlution, we used to lead the world in new technology. We pioneered the automobile, energy, and global communications to name a few. But today our companies struggle in the international market, promising new technology is being ignored (regardless of whether or not you believe global warming is real, electric cars can be much more efficient than gasoline and reduce the need for oil, meaning less dependence on foreign markets, less chance of oil spills, and better air quality) , and people are becoming more and more reliant on services. (I read an article in Wired about how the rise of the tech support industry corresponds to the fall of the "handyman" archetype, I think it can be applied in other fields as well). America is constantly falling behind in education. Lack of sufficient pay means disgruntled teachers. Lack of adequate funding for school supplies means less kids get what they need. Both of these mean kids learn less. When kids learn less, the standard is lowered as companies resort to hiring less and less qualified individuals, and the government literally lowers the standards to accomodate dumb parent's dumb kids. It's a vicious circle, and it really needs to be stopped. Dependence upon the state: It's everywhere. Welfare, bailouts, government regulation.. people turn to the government to help them when they should be helping themselves. This is a symptom of the above problem of lack of ingenuity. The free market is a machine. When more people expect more payout for less effort, the machine fails. The machine must be oiled. Teach your kids patience and work ethic. Tell your lazy friends to get off their ass and do something. Get out in the streets and tell people to work for what they want. And most importantly, reaffirm yourself with this mentality.
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Rank: Polio Power!

Groups: {pDs} Member, Registered User
Joined: 12/22/2007 Posts: 507 Points: 519 Location: in a pathetic world of fleshies
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welcome to the internet age, enjoy your stay! Bah Weep Granah Weep Ninny Bong
This is the Narwhal. Denne er narkval Hvor er narkval? Where is the narwhal? Lykkkelig liten narkval! Happy Little narwal!
This has been Conversational Norwegian with Freakazoid.
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Rank: Fuckstick
Groups: {pDs} Member, Registered User
Joined: 1/2/2008 Posts: 750 Points: 66 Location: Olympia, WA
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Holy fucking shit, Lead.
I'm with you on this one. TEAM APARTMENT: No one rocks quite as hard as we do. Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:the flying spaghetti monster skullfucked Bob's corpse. Lead Salad wrote:My ePenis is 10 feet long! WDF wrote:A pair in douchbaggery.
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Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Newsie, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/6/2007 Posts: 987 Points: 783
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I agree with your sentiments largely, but of course I have to nitpick... Lead Salad wrote:Apathy: Obviously it has always been a problem but more so today. The majority of people in this country are of the mentality that if it doesn't concern them, or if it doesn't directly benefit themselves, it's not worth their time. Probably the most unnerving example of this is the failure of the Government to aggressively address the Sudanese government and the Janjaweet for the crimes they have committed against the people of Darfur. This isn't new, either, the Government also failed to intervene in Rwanda back during Clinton's administration. Another example would be the fact that nearly half the country doesn't vote. I totally agree as it relates to the American people and our domestic issues. Our voter turnout numbers are absolutely pathetic. I'd just note that, with regard to foreign policy issues, the question shouldn't be so much about whether the people are interested enough or American industry and other interests are at stake in it, but whether we have the right to intervene in other nations' politics. It's a distant part of our nation's history, but what if we had been going through our own Civil War in modern times, with another nation (say, China) as the dominant world power. By what right would China send in masses of better trained and technologically superior military troops to take one side or the other to settle our dispute? The point applies to Iraq and Kosovo as much as to Darfur and Rwanda. Lead Salad wrote:Lack of ingenuity: Back during the industrial revlution, we used to lead the world in new technology. We pioneered the automobile, energy, and global communications to name a few. But today our companies struggle in the international market, promising new technology is being ignored We still do lead the world in many areas of technology and innovation. The landscape is changing, but it's as much a function of globalization and technological ubiquity as it is an America in decline. Lead Salad wrote:America is constantly falling behind in education. Lack of sufficient pay means disgruntled teachers. Lack of adequate funding for school supplies means less kids get what they need. Both of these mean kids learn less. When kids learn less, the standard is lowered as companies resort to hiring less and less qualified individuals, and the government literally lowers the standards to accomodate dumb parent's dumb kids. It's a vicious circle, and it really needs to be stopped. As with all government-provided services, our public education is atrocious! But the answer isn't to throw more money at it (teachers at my prepping private middle/high school made significantly less than their taxpayer-funded bretheren), but to allow the system to improve itself through competition. But back to your larger point, yes, our hobbled public education system is the source of a lot of the problems in our country and it's only going to get worse. Lead Salad wrote:Dependence upon the state: It's everywhere. Welfare, bailouts, government regulation.. people turn to the government to help them when they should be helping themselves. This is a symptom of the above problem of lack of ingenuity. YESSSSSSS!!!! Thank you, James, I'll kiss you at the next Penguinlan. You couldn't be more right... except about the ingenuity thing. People turn to the government because politicians promise them things for free. People love to talk about the "top 1%" and a small percentage pays the lionshare of tax revenue because all the wealth is so concentrated. That's true, but it also makes for a pretty small voting block, and when a politician can promise to give free stuff to a large number, he's going to win a lot of elections. Lead Salad wrote:The free market is a machine. When more people expect more payout for less effort, the machine fails. The machine must be oiled. Teach your kids patience and work ethic. Tell your lazy friends to get off their ass and do something. Get out in the streets and tell people to work for what they want. And most importantly, reaffirm yourself with this mentality. ..................................you get a handjob too. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Rank: Polio Power!

Groups: {pDs} Member, Registered User
Joined: 8/1/2008 Posts: 658 Points: 81 Location: SoCal
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A good old fashioned national crisis would do this nation a lot of good.
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Rank: Taco Technician

Groups: Registered User, {pDs} Member
Joined: 5/9/2006 Posts: 3,948 Points: 3,636 Location: Hi-Five City
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endyss wrote:I totally agree as it relates to the American people and our domestic issues. Our voter turnout numbers are absolutely pathetic. I'd just note that, with regard to foreign policy issues, the question shouldn't be so much about whether the people are interested enough or American industry and other interests are at stake in it, but whether we have the right to intervene in other nations' politics. It's a distant part of our nation's history, but what if we had been going through our own Civil War in modern times, with another nation (say, China) as the dominant world power. By what right would China send in masses of better trained and technologically superior military troops to take one side or the other to settle our dispute? The point applies to Iraq and Kosovo as much as to Darfur and Rwanda. I disagree wholeheartedly. The wars in Darfur and Rwanda were not political struggles, they were genocides. I generally oppose intervention in any true civil war but these are cases of a state blatantly killing off its own citizens. Surely you wouldn't have opposed U.S. Involvement in WW2? endyss wrote:As with all government-provided services, our public education is atrocious! But the answer isn't to throw more money at it (teachers at my prepping private middle/high school made significantly less than their taxpayer-funded bretheren), but to allow the system to improve itself through competition.
But back to your larger point, yes, our hobbled public education system is the source of a lot of the problems in our country and it's only going to get worse. At least in Seattle, public school teachers are underpaid. I think private education is fine but I don't think instantly privatizing all public schools is a good idea. Like Ron Paul said about healthcare, there needs to be an adequate transition period because the current generation is raised on the idea of the government providing these services. I wouldn't send a kid to private school unless I was confident that they weren't being fed misinformation. If the gov't was to instantly privatize and deregulate all private schools and without the existence of some watchdog organization, I would be fearful that my kid was being taught by historical revisionists or religious nutjobs. endyss wrote:YESSSSSSS!!!! Thank you, James, I'll kiss you at the next Penguinlan. You couldn't be more right... except about the ingenuity thing. People turn to the government because politicians promise them things for free. People love to talk about the "top 1%" and a small percentage pays the lionshare of tax revenue because all the wealth is so concentrated. That's true, but it also makes for a pretty small voting block, and when a politician can promise to give free stuff to a large number, he's going to win a lot of elections. Yeah as far as Welfare other forms of handouts are concerned it has a lot more to do with laziness and amoral greed. But I am ashamed of how everybody responds to the irresponsibility of corporations and other bureaucracies. In the black civil rights movement, people protested the segregation of buses by boycotting the buses. Today, people complain about Wal-Mart supposedly mistreating people and factories dumping industrial waste in natural areas, and they take action by throwing money at lobbying organizations who try to get politicians to force corporations into submission. This just pisses off the corporations and makes them retaliate by hiring more lobbyists. Somebody said power is only as good as how people react to it. In the scheme of things, those big evil corporations are only as powerful as the consumers that choose to buy from them. Don't like the company, don't buy their shit. And tell your friends not to buy their shit.
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Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Newsie, Registered User, Server Admin
Joined: 11/6/2007 Posts: 987 Points: 783
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Lead Salad wrote:I disagree wholeheartedly. The wars in Darfur and Rwanda were not political struggles, they were genocides. I generally oppose intervention in any true civil war but these are cases of a state blatantly killing off its own citizens. Surely you wouldn't have opposed U.S. Involvement in WW2? It's a tough issue, no doubt about it, and while I wouldn't say I'd have opposed U.S. involvement in WW2, I think it raises a valid point. Hindsight is always 20/20, and if we jumped into every conflict because it might turn into genocide, we'd be doing it everywhere. Wars are always bloody, horrible messes, and if we take a stand not to interfere in other countries but leave an exception for genocide, it opens us up to all other kinds of intervention "in the name of human decency," bringing us to where we are today. I'm dodging the question a bit, but if I had to take a firm stand between 1) not interfering in other countries' wars even though it might mean preventing slaughter, and 2) committing our nation's military to intervening in every conflict with humanitarian concerns, I'd choose the former. I do think, as hopeless as the organization might otherwise seem, this would be the proper place for a United Nations whereby multinational action could be taken without doing it under the banner of one sovereign nation. Lead Salad wrote:At least in Seattle, public school teachers are underpaid. I think private education is fine but I don't think instantly privatizing all public schools is a good idea. Like Ron Paul said about healthcare, there needs to be an adequate transition period because the current generation is raised on the idea of the government providing these services. I wouldn't send a kid to private school unless I was confident that they weren't being fed misinformation. If the gov't was to instantly privatize and deregulate all private schools and without the existence of some watchdog organization, I would be fearful that my kid was being taught by historical revisionists or religious nutjobs. You think historical revision only occurs in parochial schools? I'm right with you on discussions of transition to privatization of the education system, but the argument is usually whether or not to privatize at all. It's an entirely separate question of how to do it, and I agree that a gradual transition would be the only practical way to do it. Back to your fears on private education, the key component of privatization is the opportunity for competition. You wouldn't need a watchdog (which would be the reverse of privatization), since you could decide for yourself which school your child attends. I can start the Wiccan Slaughterhouse Private School today and teach whatever twisted views I like, but if no one wants to send their children there, it won't have much success. As with all areas of the free market, allow the cream to rise and the bad to fail and watch the magic happen. Lead Salad wrote:But I am ashamed of how everybody responds to the irresponsibility of corporations and other bureaucracies. In the black civil rights movement, people protested the segregation of buses by boycotting the buses. Today, people complain about Wal-Mart supposedly mistreating people and factories dumping industrial waste in natural areas, and they take action by throwing money at lobbying organizations who try to get politicians to force corporations into submission. This just pisses off the corporations and makes them retaliate by hiring more lobbyists. Somebody said power is only as good as how people react to it. In the scheme of things, those big evil corporations are only as powerful as the consumers that choose to buy from them. Don't like the company, don't buy their shit. And tell your friends not to buy their shit. I'd just note that companies do not get pissed off, that's one of the beauties of them. They act in their best interests, with or without government interference. You're right that they'll hire their own lobbyists, because history has shown it gets results. You're right they'll operate around and in spite of any regulations, because to do otherwise would get their management kicked to the curb. And bless you for pointing out the only long-term effective way to get businesses to do what you want -- patronize the ones you like, pass up those that you don't. Some vocal groups complain about Wal-Mart's discouraging unions, but their prices are so low the customers don't care, and that's all that matters to a company. If people started shopping at Target because of their union-friendly attitude, you can bet your ass Wal-Mart's new slogan would be "Always Unions." HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Rank: Fecal Impaction For the Win!
Groups: Ogamer, Registered User
Joined: 5/9/2006 Posts: 1,666 Points: 2,478 Location: La Habra, Orange, CA
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Wait, isn't Lead canadian? That's the only reason I ever disliked him. Were my preconceptions completely unfounded? silverwasp wrote:Be careful what you wish for... I have 10 younger siblings and I am only 20....
Yes.... Same parents WarMachine wrote:meh...maybe if he hadn't been handed a burning house he could have done great things, but right now he has won the Prize for what? Damage Control?
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Rank: Taco Technician

Groups: Registered User, {pDs} Member
Joined: 5/9/2006 Posts: 3,948 Points: 3,636 Location: Hi-Five City
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endyss wrote:It's a tough issue, no doubt about it, and while I wouldn't say I'd have opposed U.S. involvement in WW2, I think it raises a valid point. Hindsight is always 20/20, and if we jumped into every conflict because it might turn into genocide, we'd be doing it everywhere. Wars are always bloody, horrible messes, and if we take a stand not to interfere in other countries but leave an exception for genocide, it opens us up to all other kinds of intervention "in the name of human decency," bringing us to where we are today.
I'm dodging the question a bit, but if I had to take a firm stand between 1) not interfering in other countries' wars even though it might mean preventing slaughter, and 2) committing our nation's military to intervening in every conflict with humanitarian concerns, I'd choose the former. I do think, as hopeless as the organization might otherwise seem, this would be the proper place for a United Nations whereby multinational action could be taken without doing it under the banner of one sovereign nation. Yeah, my arguments are mostly based on principle than practicality. I'm merely defending the original ideal of defending civilians from severe and obvious enslavement and slaughtering. Whatever way in which future political leaders twist that ideal is beyond our purview. endyss wrote:You think historical revision only occurs in parochial schools? I'm right with you on discussions of transition to privatization of the education system, but the argument is usually whether or not to privatize at all. It's an entirely separate question of how to do it, and I agree that a gradual transition would be the only practical way to do it.
Back to your fears on private education, the key component of privatization is the opportunity for competition. You wouldn't need a watchdog (which would be the reverse of privatization), since you could decide for yourself which school your child attends. I can start the Wiccan Slaughterhouse Private School today and teach whatever twisted views I like, but if no one wants to send their children there, it won't have much success. As with all areas of the free market, allow the cream to rise and the bad to fail and watch the magic happen. That's the thing, is that corporations can say one thing and do another. But the more I think about it, I'm optimistic that no such problems would occur, though and if so they would be fairly easy to bust open. Holyjaw wrote:Wait, isn't Lead canadian? That's the only reason I ever disliked him. Were my preconceptions completely unfounded? Half canadian, half american. So you can half hate me. Or, you can hate me even more for the fact that I'm a halfblood, if that's your thing.
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Rank: Administration

Groups: {pDs} Member, Registered User, Server Admin, Administration
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I overall agree, but with some exceptions: Lead Salad wrote:Apathy: Obviously it has always been a problem but more so today. The majority of people in this country are of the mentality that if it doesn't concern them, or if it doesn't directly benefit themselves, it's not worth their time. Probably the most unnerving example of this is the failure of the Government to aggressively address the Sudanese government and the Janjaweet for the crimes they have committed against the people of Darfur. This isn't new, either, the Government also failed to intervene in Rwanda back during Clinton's administration. Another example would be the fact that nearly half the country doesn't vote. This is a sticky issue. While it's horrible to see mass murdering within another country, I personally place great value into sovereign rights and national borders. To me, the precedence set in invading a country that hasn't acted outside their own borders, is an absolutely horrible one to set. It says to every other nation that it's okay to invade your neighbor if you don't approve of what they're doing. Now if the country invades another ala WW2 and the Gulf War, attacking them shows that national borders mean something and to step out of line is to invite retaliation by the international community. When it comes to problems like Georgia, Tibet, etc., where the attacking nation doesn't recognize the sovereignty, things can get stickier. The simplest answer would be for those new "nations" to request membership into the UN. While the UN isn't necessarily a governing body the attacking nation would have to respect, it's the closest thing the world has. Quote:Lack of ingenuity: Back during the industrial revlution, we used to lead the world in new technology. We pioneered the automobile, energy, and global communications to name a few. But today our companies struggle in the international market, promising new technology is being ignored (regardless of whether or not you believe global warming is real, electric cars can be much more efficient than gasoline and reduce the need for oil, meaning less dependence on foreign markets, less chance of oil spills, and better air quality) , and people are becoming more and more reliant on services. (I read an article in Wired about how the rise of the tech support industry corresponds to the fall of the "handyman" archetype, I think it can be applied in other fields as well). Ingenuity is hard to come by in practice these days. Not due to a lack of intelligent and creative people, but because any significant advance that might be made will be welcomed by a plethora of lawsuits by those who stand to lose an advantage if some competing product comes of it. I can think of no example more notorious than alternative fuel technologies that would be accumulated by the oil companies. The sick thing is that a patent might not even be threatened by an advancement - just the sheer amount of legal resources corporations can bring to bear on small inventors can be enough to put them under. The fear of such lawsuits and general resistance isn't exactly something that would drive innovative people to invent new things. Quote:Dependence upon the state: It's everywhere. Welfare, bailouts, government regulation.. people turn to the government to help them when they should be helping themselves. This is a symptom of the above problem of lack of ingenuity. I agree but only to an extent. Frankly, I don't trust the free market. Corporations are all too often self-serving giants willing to step on anyone or anything to further pad their wallets. To protect both the people as well as the government from them, I think we definitely need government regulations - in fact far more than we have in place now. I've heard more than a few times that our current economical crisis is largely due to a lack of regulations and companies over-extending themselves in the pursuit of more and more money. Things such as welfare and bailouts aren't inherently bad ideas, they're just ideas that are hard to put into practice. Imagine how life could change if the single mother of three, who's far in debt, received some kind of government aid to get out of it - is that not a morally correct service to offer? Even morality aside, it's in the best interest of the country for her to be able to buy goods and for her children to be able to go to nicer schools. As I hear many saying, instead of bailing out the banks now, the government should be giving that money to the people to pay off their debt, mortgages, etc. That would be followed by a buying frenzy of the likes the world has never seen. How would that not jump-start the economy? Quote:The free market is a machine. When more people expect more payout for less effort, the machine fails. The machine must be oiled. Teach your kids patience and work ethic. Tell your lazy friends to get off their ass and do something. Get out in the streets and tell people to work for what they want. And most importantly, reaffirm yourself with this mentality. Such is the fate of a consumer society. You give people a few shiny things and they want more. As they get more they'll get lazy but still want more. Frankly this outcome of a consumer society might be worse than the outcome people feel from a socialist state: You'd end up with people who don't want to do anything and have a room full of toys to play with.
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Rikaelus wrote:Good things overall. I agree with your points about corporations being self-serving and consumers wanting shiny things, but there's nothing wrong with that. You can predict companies will want the most money they can because that's all they're ultimately meant to do. The important point of libertarianism is that it recognizes that fact and that the best way to combat the greed (aka capitalism) is competition. Give corporations an opponent, who can lower prices when they raise them and innovate when they go stagnant. Consumers will buy the best product, so let equal competitors fight for consumer dollars. But you neglect to address another group that also works predictably -- politicians. Government is dangerous because it's the only real monopoly. You can have competing mobile phone carriers, competing oil producers, etc., but you can't have competing governments vying for power. Federalism is the closest thing and even that can be tricky. Politicians control the power of that monopoly, and they predictably always want more of it. Just as with corporations, we should have a system that combats the dangerous tendencies of politicians. But it seems like, in your zeal to reign in corporate interests, you embrace giving politicians (not known for being at all pure and selfless) exactly what they crave. That's not going to stop corporations from wanting money, at best it's just going to hinder their ability to do so. At worst, it creates complex loopholes for them to wiggle through, and corruptible politicians for them to lobby. Rikaelus wrote:Things such as welfare and bailouts aren't inherently bad ideas, they're just ideas that are hard to put into practice. Imagine how life could change if the single mother of three, who's far in debt, received some kind of government aid to get out of it - is that not a morally correct service to offer? Even morality aside, it's in the best interest of the country for her to be able to buy goods and for her children to be able to go to nicer schools. As I hear many saying, instead of bailing out the banks now, the government should be giving that money to the people to pay off their debt, mortgages, etc. That would be followed by a buying frenzy of the likes the world has never seen. How would that not jump-start the economy? Isn't it morally wrong to take money from someone else in the first place, regardless of its purpose? I absolutely agree with the moral correctness of charity (essentially what you're describing), but not by forcing it from other people's hands to do it. There are private charities of all stripes that use money in better ways than government programs, with the added benefit of not taking it by force. As to the communal benefit of handing someone money to spend, the benefit is a wash. Even if you hand someone $100, it's still $100 you could have used to stimulate the economy just as much as the person you gave it to. It's even worse when wasteful government bureaucracy does it, since $100 collected from you via taxes certainly does not result in $100 for someone in need. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Rank: Administration

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endyss wrote:Rikaelus wrote:Good things overall. I agree with your points about corporations being self-serving and consumers wanting shiny things, but there's nothing wrong with that. You can predict companies will want the most money they can because that's all they're ultimately meant to do. The important point of libertarianism is that it recognizes that fact and that the best way to combat the greed (aka capitalism) is competition. Give corporations an opponent, who can lower prices when they raise them and innovate when they go stagnant. Consumers will buy the best product, so let equal competitors fight for consumer dollars. Then I'd point out that I'm in favor of abolishing or severely limiting the patent process. There are some industries that are driven by a type of product that can only be done a few different ways, and some patents are incredibly general and are still approved. Alternatively, or in addition to, individuals and companies need to be protected from larger corporations suing them when there's really no case, with the sole purpose being of financially strangling the individual or smaller company with court fees. I'm in such an industry and we now have to put money into a full-time legal department just to deal with all the asshole companies out there that are targeting us simply because they have the money to do so - money, by the way, that could go to their workers and cycle back into the economy. Quote:But you neglect to address another group that also works predictably -- politicians. Government is dangerous because it's the only real monopoly. You can have competing mobile phone carriers, competing oil producers, etc., but you can't have competing governments vying for power. Federalism is the closest thing and even that can be tricky. Politicians control the power of that monopoly, and they predictably always want more of it. Just as with corporations, we should have a system that combats the dangerous tendencies of politicians. But it seems like, in your zeal to reign in corporate interests, you embrace giving politicians (not known for being at all pure and selfless) exactly what they crave. That's not going to stop corporations from wanting money, at best it's just going to hinder their ability to do so. At worst, it creates complex loopholes for them to wiggle through, and corruptible politicians for them to lobby. That's certainly a can of worms as well and I can see how that could viewed as the other side of the coin. We definitely need to identify sensitive points of our political system that can easily succumb to corruption and keep a keen eye on them. But having not given that area much thought of late, I do not have any specific ideas at this time as to how to do so effectively. Quote:Rikaelus wrote:Things such as welfare and bailouts aren't inherently bad ideas, they're just ideas that are hard to put into practice. Imagine how life could change if the single mother of three, who's far in debt, received some kind of government aid to get out of it - is that not a morally correct service to offer? Even morality aside, it's in the best interest of the country for her to be able to buy goods and for her children to be able to go to nicer schools. As I hear many saying, instead of bailing out the banks now, the government should be giving that money to the people to pay off their debt, mortgages, etc. That would be followed by a buying frenzy of the likes the world has never seen. How would that not jump-start the economy? Isn't it morally wrong to take money from someone else in the first place, regardless of its purpose? I absolutely agree with the moral correctness of charity (essentially what you're describing), but not by forcing it from other people's hands to do it. There are private charities of all stripes that use money in better ways than government programs, with the added benefit of not taking it by force. As to the communal benefit of handing someone money to spend, the benefit is a wash. Even if you hand someone $100, it's still $100 you could have used to stimulate the economy just as much as the person you gave it to. It's even worse when wasteful government bureaucracy does it, since $100 collected from you via taxes certainly does not result in $100 for someone in need. I'm a firm believer that one of the chief purposes of any government is to bring order to what would otherwise be chaos; to ensure a stable society for those it governs. To that end, there will always be those who fall behind, whether it be due to laziness or just really bad luck - and in our case people are beginning to fall behind because our educational and health care systems are ineffective and inaccessible. If enough fall behind, society as a whole begins to fall behind or, worst, those who fall behind are in some way taken advantage of. Now I'm certainly not advocating a system that would reward someone who's fully capable of working but opts to sit on their asses, but I do think it's the government's inherent duty to help its people keep up with the group when it can. If that means tax money going to a single mother, then so be it. It's morally correct , it's socially correct, and most of all it helps stabilize our society.
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Rank: Fecal Impaction For the Win!

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endyss wrote:I agree with your sentiments largely, but of course I have to nitpick... [I totally agree as it relates to the American people and our domestic issues. Our voter turnout numbers are absolutely pathetic. I'd just note that, with regard to foreign policy issues, the question shouldn't be so much about whether the people are interested enough or American industry and other interests are at stake in it, but whether we have the right to intervene in other nations' politics. It's a distant part of our nation's history, but what if we had been going through our own Civil War in modern times, with another nation (say, China) as the dominant world power. By what right would China send in masses of better trained and technologically superior military troops to take one side or the other to settle our dispute? The point applies to Iraq and Kosovo as much as to Darfur and Rwanda.
Right or no right nations have interferred with conflicts outside of thier direct concern for thousands of years. Often they secondary stakeholders in the outcome of a particular political situation... As a devils advocate (a role i know you love to play) lets assume that the US did not intervene (even in a war material sense) to the UK during the battle of britain? Surely it was not our conflict (at the time)...but historians have said that almost without a doubt, if we had not provided support during those early years..the isle would have fallen and Hitler would have set his gaze across the atlantic.
The same arguement can be made for the french assisting the colonies during the revolutionary war....The french were stakeholders (in a Schedenfreude sort of way) in seeing the colonies break away and the subsequent reduction in influence from thier main competitor...did they have the right? Ask most americans and i think we will answer yes.
Don't be short-sighted.
Quote:
"Who the fuck is Leon Switch and why does he know we have a dog?" - Mrs. Giller
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Giller [GwDR wrote:Right or no right nations have interferred with conflicts outside of thier direct concern for thousands of years. Often they secondary stakeholders in the outcome of a particular political situation... As a devils advocate (a role i know you love to play) lets assume that the US did not intervene (even in a war material sense) to the UK during the battle of britain? Surely it was not our conflict (at the time)...but historians have said that almost without a doubt, if we had not provided support during those early years..the isle would have fallen and Hitler would have set his gaze across the atlantic.
The same arguement can be made for the french assisting the colonies during the revolutionary war....The french were stakeholders (in a Schedenfreude sort of way) in seeing the colonies break away and the subsequent reduction in influence from thier main competitor...did they have the right? Ask most americans and i think we will answer yes.
Don't be short-sighted.
Nations have interferred with conflicts outside their direct concern usually to make it their concern. To my knowledge the US has never intervened in a country to simply add it to their "empire." Germany, Japan, South Korea, Bosnia, all of these resulted in a stable independent government under the control of its own people. Iraq is a work in progress, but I highly doubt we'll see Iraqis voting in US elections and adding a 51st star to our flag anytime soon. Specifically on the WWII case, another benefit of hindsight is that you can never know with any perfect certainty what would have happened, even though you know exactly what occurred as a result of the action that was taken. Who knows, if the US hadn't entered the theatre until directly attacked, a permanent Jewish state might have been ultimately set up in part of central Europe instead of Israel, and we wouldn't have the current conflict in that region. I'm not arguing the likelihood of that, just saying we don't know. The same could be said about the nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki; some say we would have had a protracted ground war to invade Japan, others say Japan was all but defeated already and would have capitulated in a matter of weeks anyway. Choices were made, we'll never know for sure. But my larger point isn't to argue against any particular historical conduct, but to say that intervention in other nation's conflicts should be by far the exception to the rule, rather than the default position all too commonly advocated these days. Certainly there could be cases where intervention is the only wise course of action, but if you look at the number of places we're either being pushed towards or already involved in -- Iraq, Gaza, Iran, Afganistan, Darfur, North Korea, Taiwan, Somalia, Georgia, Tibet -- it validates my point that we've opened ourselves to all other kinds of intervention "in the name of human decency" by not even considering going in the other direction. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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A country doesn't need to be made a state for it to be a part of our empire. The empire outside our states is not a political one but an economical one. We invade a country, "free" it's people, put in a friendly government, then move our corporations in. Hell our corporations were jumping into Iraq before the situation was even stable and people got killed. It's not territorial greed that drives our expansion, just financial greed. Besides, why would we want Iraqis to vote in our elections when we can exploit them without representation?
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