I'm not writing this as a complaint per se, just my own observations of myself and other relatively highly ranked players on the Tempest servers. I'm also not entirely sure how the system could be "fixed" in a way that wouldn't equally favor some different class, but I thought I'd offer my thoughts anyway.

As I understand it, you need 50 kills to begin really being ranked on HLSTATSX, as well as to get more than 1 point per kill. However, whenever you die, you begin to lose points as well. The higher you are in the ranks, the fewer points you get for killing someone of lower rank, and the more points they get (and take away from you) for killing you. In the upper brackets of the ranks, I've become accustom to losing anywhere from 18 to 25 points per death to anyone not still in their initial 50 kills, while gaining at most 3-4 points per kill (most often, just 1). I realize how this works, and how things ultimately "balance out," since the more points I lose, the lower I'll drop in the ranks, until I start getting more points than I lose again by killing people higher rank, etc. My concern is more with what this psychologically does to players the higher they rise.

For my part, I've noticed a psychological incentive not just to play better, but also significantly more conservatively. If I am going to lose 18-25 points on the average death, why jump into the fray with a pyro or run far from my teammates with a scout to make the capture? Why even play those classes at all? Sure, individual skill varies, and I'm truly awful with the scout, so YMMV to some extent, but it's not just coincidence that pyros die more and score less than a heavy or soldier.

The ultimate issue is one of incentives. I have no incentive to get better with the scout at the cost of 20+ levels in the rankings. In fact, the real incentive as one rises is to die less, regardless of the team's needs. Engineer is perhaps best suited for this, since it awards a guaranteed 10 points for building a sentry and dispenser, you die far less frequently on average, and you can still score your 1-3 point kills if you're halfway decent. If you have a particular skill with a class (I'm not bad with the heavy), the system encourages you to play that class more, which is good, but it can still be at the cost of what your team actually needs at any given point a round.

Most disturbingly, it comes very close to creating a disincentive to actually play on an HLSTATSX server on which you're highly ranked at all! Since to my knowledge points don't decay, and players are only removed after being inactive on a server after an entire month, a first or second ranked player needs only log in, kill or die once or twice (not significantly effecting his or her rank), log off and maintain his lead. If he's really smart, he'll just join as an engineer, built a sentry or two, and even increase his lead.

So how to fix this?

Basing rank purely on number of kills isn't really effective, since that promotes high damage classes like the heavy and his medic partner, simply displacing the incentive from conservative to high damage play. If possible, changing the system to not actually subtract points might be a solution. Your point gain would progressively slow as you rise without penalizing you for trying something new, and lower ranked players would still gain more points for killing people of high rank. Perhaps the best solution would be to base Total Ranking on more than just pure point value. Number of kills, number of skilled kills (backstabs, wrench kills, etc.), built objects, flag and point captures could all factor into an overall rank that more effectively reflects a player's skill and frequency of play, without penalizing him.

Again, I don't offer this as a complaint about the system, and I realize WDF? may not be even be able to alter the way HLSTATSX functions on The Tempest servers. It's just a comment on the psychological cost benefit analysis I find myself engaged in as I rose as high as 4th in Total Ranking, only to slide to 11th with little hope of recovery in sight.

ok  here comes a long post:

A) WDF im sorry but anyone that takes the point system seriously has a competitive spirit and will not just play our servers for "fun." they will play our server to become the best and will continue to play to maintain the top rank. They will become regulars. i can relate to this type of player.  A lot of players have commented how much they love the hlstats feature. The answer to this debate is to DEFINANTLY MAINTAIN the stat systems.  We need to adapt the stats as they apply to the players with a competitive spirit who understand it will take more than  the weekly log on to become top. They understand that alot of time, skill, and dedication is required. This is why we must/should cater to these players. They will be amongst our greatest regulars.

B) I totally agree with the above, the current configuration is much to based on KDR than on player classes roles. The anser?!?! Not an easy one. Perhaps it requires research at other servers to see their configurations and find out what is best. Also it requires the response from members of this forum.  Our server currently awards a shit load of points to a player of a low rank if they kill a high rank. This is the result our servers stat system just beginning. Think about it. If our server's stats do not reset, we will have a bunch of players at different ranks which will allow us all to gain points from regs and lose pts to noobs. Currently the ranks are all clustered and there really isnt a middle ground. Also I think that  KDR is WAYYYYYYYY too emphasized. Support classed glide to the top of rank because for them KDR is basically meaningles as they gain pts easier without getting a kill. We need to lower the pts given to the medics mostly. YES YES YES they are important but that doesnt mean if you play medic for a few hours you deserve to be at the top. SOME Skill should be required?! Dick cheney climbed the ranks in half the time as anyone else. WHy? becuase he was medic for 80% of it.  That just isnt fair! The points lost for dying as  other classes needs to be lowered and the points lost for dying as a support class needs to be increased EXCEPT for the spy. The spy isnt too much of a factor on 30 player servers since there are so many attack fronts where they are easily confronted. Leave the spy as is.

C)I am ranked 20th, was ranked 1st and 2nd for awhile. It became apparent to me that if i wanted to maintain my rank i had to become a engineer or a medic. I love stas and this seems rediculous. Make it fair. It isnt hard I would love to be in control of HLSTATS being as i love numbers and statistics. i know id put time and dedication into making it as fair as possible for TF2. if not plz just reduce the death penatlies for most classes. TF2 is alot about brute strength and rushing oppontents. If players are worreid about KDR there going to become conservative and this will result in alot of stalemates. In ww2 at the beach of normady soliders had to rush the beach. IF they sat back and worried about dying they would never have accomplished their goald. By punishing players for dying were basically telling them to sit on their asses and act like a little bitch.

i love the stas plz keep and look at my post as constructive criticsim. The hlstatsx so far have been great. Its just we can make it BETTER!

fuck you. being a good medic isnt easy.

Finally an intelligent discussion on improving things. Thanks Endyss and Tony...

So far I have cut the point modifier in half for sentry gun kills.


I am going to increase the 50 kill thing to 500. I wanted regulars, not people getting discouraged... but now we have regulars so we'll go for it. This means 1-2 point loss until they get 500 kills on the servers.


I will look into modifying the multipliers today. Stay tuned.


On a side note, I'm at almost 3000 points and holding my own as a Pyro... Sure I'm not #1... but my points have gone up each game, not down. This means I'm still improving... and I'm taking major 25 point losses to. It's all about how you play the game.

No complaints here! I'd say anything that makes everyone on the team want to scramble for the win and cheer at the victory is a good thing (as long as it doesn't imbalance things).

So correct me if I'm wrong, but does that mean Victim Point calculation now reads as:

Victim Points = Victim Points - (Victim Points / Killer Points) × Weapon Modifier × 3.75

(the 3.75 modifier being 3/4 of the killer's x5 modifier)

No complaints here either, but I'm assuming that isn't retroactively applied (i.e. people who are ranked via the 50 kill policy aren't going to be pulled back into unranking with the increase)?

Explain this one to me?

If someone is ranked 8,000th, having duly gotten either his 50 or 500 kills, when he kills a top tier player, he's going to take the maximum points from the player. The only reason I thought to start discussion on the point system is that it felt to me that literally 99.9% of ranked players will take more points from me than I get from killing (ranked 11th out of 9,518) and the mental effect that has whenever I want to play. Am I wrong in that thinking somewhere?

Endyss, everyone who connects to the server in the last 28 days is shown on the ranking page, however, only those with 500 kills can earn more than 1 point per kill.

There are only a little over 100 players with 500 or more kills currently. Anyone below 500 will only take 1 point.

And yes, I believe it is 3.75 of the 5.

People under 500 kills will go back to earning 1 point per kill.

Bear in mind, as I now understand it, you're still ranked while you climb through the 500 kills. You just need 500 to start receiving tons of points, and only dedicated regulars like yourself will be able to do so (as WDF? wanted).

Personally, I'd rather see the effect accomplished by tightening the range of points distributed, more than just making it harder to reach, since the higher the initial number, the less likely people will be to make the commitment, but this has something of the desired effect.

Just for discussion's sake, why subtract points at all. The same can be accomplished by balancing the point GAIN, and the actual point totals are meaningless except for their use in ranking one player to the next.

Points are subtracted to give meaning to points in general. If no points are lost, you just keep gaining points and gaining points. The only way to lose a rank is if someone grinds more than you.