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Comment on the Kill Assist - Medic bonus Options
endyss
#16 Posted: : Monday, November 19, 2007 3:09:13 PM
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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:
You could make the kill assist points go up to 10 or down to 1 and I don't think it will significantly change who plays medics or how high people who play medics get ranked.

Well, considering that, as I said, the top three players (now top four) all have Kill Assist - Medic as either their first or second most common form of point gain, I think the number of points assigned to it would definitely affect people that play the class are ranked.


Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:
It seems like some people think you should only get points for killing people is the real issue? Or at least that killing people is more valuable.

That's not the case at all. I'm not arguing that killing others is more important than healing (in fact, in terms of a single player's value, a medic is almost certainly more valuable, so a bonus to Kill Assist - Medic seems appropriate), only that the reward for being a medic is currently higher than their true value to the team.


Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:
I'm wondering if people actually do behave differently based on points awarded though? I didn't think so, but if that is the case then maybe the kill assist points should go up to encourage more people to play as medics since it seems to be such an unpopular class most of the time.

It won't encourage the vast majority of players. It will only make players at the top, who pay attention to the rankings, lean heavily towards medic (where they can maximize their return), and you'll see the top tier filled with them (as it is now).


Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:
The problem with that is that it's impossible. How you score depends on the circumstances. Assuming ... [snip] ... There is no way you can ever create a points system where every class will advance at the same rate. Sometimes an engie is going to earn more points than a heavy, sometimes a scout is going to earn more than a sniper. It all depends on the circumstances. Part of the fun of TF2 is figuring out the rock to your enemies scissors.

You are correct that different maps and different circumstances favor one class or another, but the game is pretty well designed, and there's no class that is universally more or less useful all the time. That means, between classes the difference is moot, so you'd expect a perfectly designed point system to never consistently reward one class or another. The problem with the current setup is that yes, as evidenced by the disparity of rewards from only a week or two, medics are the only way to go for someone wanting to get maximum points.

You'll never have a system where every class advances at the same rate, but that's because you'll never have two players of identical skill and circumstances. The system should reward individual skill and teamwork (and part of that entails playing the class the team needs. If they need a medic something fierce, the system should reward the person who fills the role because he'll carry the heavy to victory. But if they need a pyro and already have 3 medics, it shouldn't still reward medics more). If instead it encourages players to choose one class solely because they need the points, the system has become counterproductive in the extreme.



HolyJaw wrote:
In the end, everything Endyss said.


bitchmaker
#17 Posted: : Monday, November 19, 2007 3:12:41 PM
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I agree totaly with dick there is no constant and there are too many variables to make things even for all classes all the time.

Hey whut would it be possible to make it so people only get points when their team secures a flag or captures a point. in other words the whole team scores or nobody scores. that would be the fairest way to keep stats. That way people would play whatever class was needed most by the team to reach the objective. Also people would not care if they get killed by a lower skilled player and god forbid lose a few points. After all the game is TEAM fortress.

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WDF? wrote:
go fuck yourself hanukkah style.
WDF?
#18 Posted: : Monday, November 19, 2007 3:18:51 PM
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The team gets 25 points each for flag caps.

endyss
#19 Posted: : Monday, November 19, 2007 3:25:03 PM
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WDF? wrote:
Anything we decide to change here will not go into effect for at least another week. I want to get a good amount of players taking points from the highers before we tweak anything.

The problem with waiting on that (and I'm not quite sure of a solution) is the relationship between points gained and points lost. As it stands, the most you can lose is 30, but between captures and kill assists, you can gain far more points in a single life. If someone favoring medic is halfway decent, all they need is to Kill Assist - Medic three times before dying, and they have offset the maximum number of point they stand to lose.

As long as any player can consistently gain more than they lose (made much easier with the Kill Assist's static point gain), they'll never come down. And frankly, the only thing that could even catch them would be a far better medic. Since all highly ranked people will lose an increasing number of points as more people hit 500 kills, the ability to maintain a positive gain:loss ratio becomes key, and no other class will be able to keep up with the Kill Assist - Medic bonus.



This thread has started to feel to me like I need to defend my position, even though I am just arguing based on the readily available evidence. Just as I was encouraged to play conservatively when playing risky classes had such a high penalty, I'm increasingly encouraged to play a medic, not because my team needs it or it's what I want to play, but because every day I see a new player shoot past me in the rankings. I am of the opinion that a point and ranking system should be a transparent reflection of skill and teamwork, and not encourage or favor the play of a single class. If this is a philosophical difference and you're happy to see the top 5, top 10, or even top 25 populated almost exclusively by people who have at one time or another gotten the bulk of their points by playing medic, it's your system to incentivize as you like.

I'm just here to discuss the effects and help guide the system in the direction you really want it to.



HolyJaw wrote:
In the end, everything Endyss said.


WDF?
#20 Posted: : Monday, November 19, 2007 4:55:23 PM
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Medics can earn 30 points with 5 kill assists. In the blink of an eye that can be all for naught if killed by a low enough person.

WDF?
#21 Posted: : Monday, November 19, 2007 5:04:04 PM
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You're feeling you have to defend it because people aren't agreeing with your position on the matter. It isn't a personal issue.

I think the important thing to remember is that it will never be perfect. If we change one thing, someone else will be upset, and the cycle will continue.

However, since this is apparently a pressing time-sensitive issue, there is a poll up.

Endyss... you're in like 5th place without medicing... I don't know what the problem here is.

endyss
#22 Posted: : Monday, November 19, 2007 5:57:45 PM
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WDF? wrote:
Endyss... you're in like 5th place without medicing... I don't know what the problem here is.

And if my concern were my own ranking, you'd be absolutely right. But if heavies or spies received more points overall than another class, I'd be arguing to reduce their gain just the same.

On a side note, the last few hours I have been playing a medic, both for the incentive it has, as well as to see if my argument really held water. And it does, to an insane degree. The points awarded as a medic dwarf what I would get on any other class. In less than 3 hours I'm approaching close to a 1,200 point gain. No other class holds a candle to that (and I'm not even a great medic). So change it if you like, or don't, but I have no doubt now that as players realize this advantage, you'll see the top ranks comprised almost solely of them.


Edit: Note my current rank after those THREE HOURS is now 3, not 5.



HolyJaw wrote:
In the end, everything Endyss said.


WDF?
#23 Posted: : Monday, November 19, 2007 7:27:22 PM
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I'd still like to give it more time.

Gnar
#24 Posted: : Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:13:22 AM
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in the time it took for all of you to read/write all this crap about points, you could have added like 10,000 points to your score. time to prioritize
Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart
#25 Posted: : Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:32:35 AM
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endyss raises a lot of great points. Don't worry about feeling like you need to defend your position, you are doing a great job of it.

Is it possible to set kill assist points dynamically? if so, perhaps it could be fixed at 5, unless you get the kill assist from a higher ranking player in which case it could drop down to something lower? this would perhaps address some of the concerns raised - less kill assist points would go out total.

Something which hasn't been mentioned:
 I may be wrong but it seems kill assist points are not taken from the victim, they are fresh points added into the system. Thus, when someone like a high-ranking medic dies and loses 30 points, they are actually distributing more points out there leading to a kind of inflationary effect. Kill assist points lead to more point gains for lower-ranked people.
Razor wrote:
Killing people is good therapy.


WDF?
#26 Posted: : Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:18:29 AM
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Yeah, they are new points. No I can't set it dynamically.

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