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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:More seriously, this is exactly the kind of situation where nationalizing segments of the economy is the better of the evils, at least from the perspective that minimizing instability is a worthwhile goal. Governments will fail you, every time and without fail. You say by nationalizing everything we can minimize instability, but what happens when the politicians overpromise (as they do) and underdeliver (as they do)? Throw equal protection to the wind and keep raising taxes, so that if you make below x you pay NOTHING and if you make above y you pay nearly everything? You can call all those entitlements "mandatory" expenditures and leave them out of budget considerations, but they are eventually going to consume the entire thing, and when they have to be reformed or cut back and the people who rely on the government for everything are pissed, we'll long for the days when the instability in our country was confined to Wall Street. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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endyss wrote:Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:More seriously, this is exactly the kind of situation where nationalizing segments of the economy is the better of the evils, at least from the perspective that minimizing instability is a worthwhile goal. Governments will fail you, every time and without fail. You say by nationalizing everything we can minimize instability, but what happens when the politicians overpromise (as they do) and underdeliver (as they do)? Throw equal protection to the wind and keep raising taxes, so that if you make below x you pay NOTHING and if you make above y you pay nearly everything? You can call all those entitlements "mandatory" expenditures and leave them out of budget considerations, but they are eventually going to consume the entire thing, and when they have to be reformed or cut back and the people who rely on the government for everything are pissed, we'll long for the days when the instability in our country was confined to Wall Street. Would you rather keep your eyes on one giant point of failure: government ; or many small points of failure: government and every economy-influencing corporation and bank? The government at least, in theory, is answerable to the people. Corporations are only answerable to their stockholders who only care about lining their own pockets.
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Rikaelus wrote:Would you rather keep your eyes on one giant point of failure: government ; or many small points of failure: government and every economy-influencing corporation and bank? The government at least, in theory, is answerable to the people. Corporations are only answerable to their stockholders who only care about lining their own pockets. Le sigh. The beauty of the free market is that it has so many smaller "points of failure," as you call them. If one fails, the whole country doesn't collapse in on itself. Case-in-point: this current crisis is huge and was created by a lot of companies making bad decisions (and more than a little government meddling to get them to do things they wouldn't otherwise do), and big as it was, it would have passed in time even without the government bailouts. If anything, the bailouts have cushioned the fall and ultimately prolonged the pain. But when they fail, life goes on. When the government, or "one giant point of failure," goes belly up, that's it. Game over. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:RichardAwesome wrote:endyss wrote:Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:I vote we kill the bankers, confiscate their property, and then distribute it to the working class. Problem solved. Sounds great! Kill the nobles rich and give away their stuff, they're all evil anyway, right? But... um... then what would we do to fund all those entitlement programs like welfare and Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security and education and universal healthcare? And don't we have the right to affordable housing too? I mean, I'm just saying it could be tough with like a third of Americans not paying any income taxes, and the top earners being, well, dead. Not necessarily. They kill the top earners and take their income and become the top earners themselves... meaning they have to be killed too. Exactly. Added benefit: Population control. Our success is guaranteed. More seriously, this is exactly the kind of situation where nationalizing segments of the economy is the better of the evils, at least from the perspective that minimizing instability is a worthwhile goal. Minimizing instability can drastically reduce growth. When the skies are the limits, the falls are just the same. Once you nationalize the segment and maintain a flatline, you don't just eliminate the falls, you eliminate the skies.
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endyss wrote:Rikaelus wrote:Would you rather keep your eyes on one giant point of failure: government ; or many small points of failure: government and every economy-influencing corporation and bank? The government at least, in theory, is answerable to the people. Corporations are only answerable to their stockholders who only care about lining their own pockets. Le sigh. The beauty of the free market is that it has so many smaller "points of failure," as you call them. If one fails, the whole country doesn't collapse in on itself. Case-in-point: this current crisis is huge and was created by a lot of companies making bad decisions (and more than a little government meddling to get them to do things they wouldn't otherwise do), and big as it was, it would have passed in time even without the government bailouts. If anything, the bailouts have cushioned the fall and ultimately prolonged the pain. But when they fail, life goes on. When the government, or "one giant point of failure," goes belly up, that's it. Game over. I think you'd find that if the government went belly up, even with a separate "free market", it would still be "Game over". Hell our economy is so damn finicky that 9/11 created major waves. I'm still wondering how the hell our economy would survive a real war. Lets see if it recovers New York being taken, or obliterated, by an enemy nation. One of the lesser reasons I simply don't trust it...
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The difference is that the factors that can make the government go belly up in a nationalized country are far more numerous than if the government is more limited. Housing bubbles, more older people retiring, any of a number of things can upset the balance of the government's budget if it has its fingers in so many pies (and thus relies on them). Dick wants to kill all the rich people and redistribute their assets. Great, but now you've lost the primary fuel that the government consumes to fund its programs. The bottom line is: if you rely on the government to do things for you that you could do yourself, you're setting yourself up for a fall. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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endyss wrote:The difference is that the factors that can make the government go belly up in a nationalized country are far more numerous than if the government is more limited. Housing bubbles, more older people retiring, any of a number of things can upset the balance of the government's budget if it has its fingers in so many pies (and thus relies on them). ou mean each of us Dick wants to kill all the rich people and redistribute their assets. Great, but now you've lost the primary fuel that the government consumes to fund its programs. The bottom line is: if you rely on the government to do things for you that you could do yourself, you're setting yourself up for a fall. Our government, rather you see it as a republic or a democracy, is a manifestation of us "doing things for ourselves". Our government is a conceptual extension of our society, granted powers by society to set rules that govern the society. Unless by "ourselves" you mean each of us as individuals. In which case... I can't provide an education to myself, or defend this country by myself, or perform surgery on myself, or repair all the roads myself. If you think that government is there to do what we can't do by ourselves as individuals then we really should have a government-provided medical program. 
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Rikaelus wrote:Unless by "ourselves" you mean each of us as individuals. In which case... I can't provide an education to myself, or defend this country by myself, or perform surgery on myself, or repair all the roads myself. If you think that government is there to do what we can't do by ourselves as individuals then we really should have a government-provided medical program.  By "ourselves" I mean private enterprise -- I can't provide an education by myself, but I can start a school by myself, hire teachers and administrators and charge tuition to teach children. In that sense I'm doing it "myself." The alternative to that is doing it via the government, where an elected official decides "Hey, we could use that" and diverts some number of tax dollars collected by force for that purpose. Ron Paul put it succinctly in his book " The Revolution: A Manifesto," which could nearly be a point-for-point expression of the views I espouse. Ron Paul, in Chapter 4 - Economic Freedom wrote:Economic freedom is based on a simple moral rule: everyone has a right to his or her life and property, and no one has the right to deprive anyone of these things.
To some extent, everyone accepts this principle. For instance, anyone going to his neighbor's home and taking his money at gunpoint, regardless of all the wonderful, selfless things he promised to do with it, would be promptly arrested as a thief.
But for some reason it is considered morally acceptable when government does that very thing. We have allowed government to operate according to its own set of moral rules. Frédéric Bastiat, one of the great political and economic writers of all time, called this "legal plunder." HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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HeXploiT wrote:We caused this mess. Maybe we need to go down in flames to finally repent of our national stupidity. I agree with that idea. The only thing is, which is slowly becoming my new catchphrase in this messed up world, I hope you morons don't take us down with you. Win Cookies Awarded: 7 (bawwwwww)
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endyss wrote:Rikaelus wrote:Unless by "ourselves" you mean each of us as individuals. In which case... I can't provide an education to myself, or defend this country by myself, or perform surgery on myself, or repair all the roads myself. If you think that government is there to do what we can't do by ourselves as individuals then we really should have a government-provided medical program.  By "ourselves" I mean private enterprise -- I can't provide an education by myself, but I can start a school by myself, hire teachers and administrators and charge tuition to teach children. In that sense I'm doing it "myself." The alternative to that is doing it via the government, where an elected official decides "Hey, we could use that" and diverts some number of tax dollars collected by force for that purpose. Ah, but you see.. by starting a school you're conceptually starting a government under your control. Those who work for you are the government's bureaucracy. The children that attend are your constituents and their tuition is the equivalent of taxes. The only notable difference between a company and a government is that the service the government provides is land. If you use the land, you pay for it in "taxes". If you conduct certain behaviors on it, you pay taxes or fines. Our laws are simply a Terms of Use contract that's agreed upon simply by the use of the service. Like any large company it has its own security departments protecting its assets, it's own training programs teaching its users how to be productive within the service offered, etc., etc. With regards to elected officials in the government, is that so much different than stockholders selecting who runs their company? I find the parallels rather mind-boggling when you get down to that level.
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Rikaelus wrote:Ah, but you see.. by starting a school you're conceptually starting a government under your control. Those who work for you are the government's bureaucracy. The children that attend are your constituents and their tuition is the equivalent of taxes.
The only notable difference between a company and a government is that the service the government provides is land. If you use the land, you pay for it in "taxes". If you conduct certain behaviors on it, you pay taxes or fines. Our laws are simply a Terms of Use contract that's agreed upon simply by the use of the service. Like any large company it has its own security departments protecting its assets, it's own training programs teaching its users how to be productive within the service offered, etc., etc.
With regards to elected officials in the government, is that so much different than stockholders selecting who runs their company?
I find the parallels rather mind-boggling when you get down to that level. In some ways, you are correct, assuming you see continuing to live within the U.S. borders in the same way as you see license agreements like "by installing this software you agree to be bound by these Terms of Use." The key difference, however, is in every government's monopoly on the use of force. Companies can bind people through contract, but it doesn't have any special rights beyond that of normal citizens. They can sue you for breach of contract, but they can't take your house (without government's help) or throw you in jail if you don't comply with their terms. In short, they have no inherent rights that you yourself don't have. To say that there's no meaningful difference between governmental force and private enterprise, you're glossing over the biggest thing that makes them different. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Endyss are you advocating a complete ceasing of tax collection in favor of a free market system for all public services? Or do you just want it all federal tax revanue to instead go to the states? If the former, please explain the method that private companies (that are assumed to fill the void) should be paid in return for completing projects that are public works? How do you determine what individuals pay what amount? How do you force them to pay if its not a "tax"? If they dont pay its assumed the service just wont be provided, or be of poor quality.
I am semi-libertarian.....but also understand that free market economic theory assumes the people behave in a rational way that is in thier best interest. The reality is that alot of the times they dont, so it can break down. Quote:
"Who the fuck is Leon Switch and why does he know we have a dog?" - Mrs. Giller
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endyss wrote:Rikaelus wrote:Ah, but you see.. by starting a school you're conceptually starting a government under your control. Those who work for you are the government's bureaucracy. The children that attend are your constituents and their tuition is the equivalent of taxes.
The only notable difference between a company and a government is that the service the government provides is land. If you use the land, you pay for it in "taxes". If you conduct certain behaviors on it, you pay taxes or fines. Our laws are simply a Terms of Use contract that's agreed upon simply by the use of the service. Like any large company it has its own security departments protecting its assets, it's own training programs teaching its users how to be productive within the service offered, etc., etc.
With regards to elected officials in the government, is that so much different than stockholders selecting who runs their company?
I find the parallels rather mind-boggling when you get down to that level. In some ways, you are correct, assuming you see continuing to live within the U.S. borders in the same way as you see license agreements like "by installing this software you agree to be bound by these Terms of Use." The key difference, however, is in every government's monopoly on the use of force. Companies can bind people through contract, but it doesn't have any special rights beyond that of normal citizens. They can sue you for breach of contract, but they can't take your house (without government's help) or throw you in jail if you don't comply with their terms. In short, they have no inherent rights that you yourself don't have. To say that there's no meaningful difference between governmental force and private enterprise, you're glossing over the biggest thing that makes them different. But those are simply measures of force. We, as citizens, use the government's services and abide by their "Terms of Use", and so do any companies operating on the land of the government. Think of it like this. Your a customer of a large conglomerate and the contract you've agreed to holds you to certain restrictions but also offers some protections. Through this "master contract" you deal with one of the conglomerate's subsidiaries, perhaps with a lesser contract of their own, and they feel you violate it. In lieu of a government to turn to in order to punish you because they lack the means to do so themselves, they turn to their parent company which has much more muscle. The conglomerate then decides, per the contract you agreed to, how to punish you. Maybe they even decide to end the contract: exile if the conglomerate's service is land! The ability to make the rules and punish is merely a question of power. We give the government, or that conglomerate, the ability to make laws and punish us for infractions, and that "big difference" isn't so big. Conceptually it's the same thing; it's only the scale and names we give that differ. Reference any number of visions of the future that have government replaced by corporations; each with their own militaries, etc. At that point it's really just many small governments.
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Giller [GwDR wrote:
Endyss are you advocating a complete ceasing of tax collection in favor of a free market system for all public services? Or do you just want it all federal tax revanue to instead go to the states? If the former, please explain the method that private companies (that are assumed to fill the void) should be paid in return for completing projects that are public works? How do you determine what individuals pay what amount? How do you force them to pay if its not a "tax"? If they dont pay its assumed the service just wont be provided, or be of poor quality.
I never meant to say that government force is unnecessary in all circumstances -- there are definitely places that government is best suited to the task, like the public works situations you mentioned. Another important place is law enforcement. You can't have market competition in addressing crime for a number of reasons, but chief among them is that it can't work in an individual rights universe. Since no one would have the right to infringe on another's, we need an agreed upon central authority empowered to deprive criminals of the rights they had (such as liberty, by imprisoning them) when they commit a crime. Anything else borders on anarchy and vigilante justice, with private citizens acting as judge, jury, and executioner.
Rikaelus wrote:But those are simply measures of force. We, as citizens, use the government's services and abide by their "Terms of Use", and so do any companies operating on the land of the government. Think of it like this. Your a customer of a large conglomerate and the contract you've agreed to holds you to certain restrictions but also offers some protections. Through this "master contract" you deal with one of the conglomerate's subsidiaries, perhaps with a lesser contract of their own, and they feel you violate it. In lieu of a government to turn to in order to punish you because they lack the means to do so themselves, they turn to their parent company which has much more muscle. The conglomerate then decides, per the contract you agreed to, how to punish you. Maybe they even decide to end the contract: exile if the conglomerate's service is land!
The ability to make the rules and punish is merely a question of power. We give the government, or that conglomerate, the ability to make laws and punish us for infractions, and that "big difference" isn't so big. Conceptually it's the same thing; it's only the scale and names we give that differ. Reference any number of visions of the future that have government replaced by corporations; each with their own militaries, etc. At that point it's really just many small governments. It absolutely is a question of power, but not a mere one! As I said above on law enforcement, government has a monopoly on the use of force -- be that to imprison criminals or collect tax revenue. It's not analogous to think of the government in terms of a private corporation because they have power no private citizen ever has. In the example you made of a contract and issues with a subcontractor, the differences are a) you would have still entered into the contract voluntarily and agreed to the terms before action commenced (as opposed to a governmental analogy where you're bound by the terms unless you "opt out" by leaving the country), and more importantly b) the conglomerate would still be bound by the same laws and restrictions on use of force that you yourself are. You absolutely can contract away certain freedoms in our system (and incur liability if you don't abide by the terms), but that still wouldn't give a corporate megalith indiscriminate power over how to remedy a breach. Finally it's worth noting, even if you make the contract and then breach, the conglomerate itself would still have no power to enforce the contract, whatever it says. They'd still have to take you to court, and ultimately it would require the power monopoly of the government to enforce the terms (btw I absolutely support governmental backing for enforcement of contracts). Look, guys, I'm not advocating anarchy or saying that there should be no government or taxes whatsoever. I'm arguing from the standpoint that all government intervention is inherently bad and a violation of your rights, but that in some situations it has to be tolerated in order for society to function. Rather than questioning the relative evil of any given law, I'd start by saying "Government by default is bad. Now, why should we tolerate our rights being violated here, in spite of that?" HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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endyss wrote:Rikaelus wrote:But those are simply measures of force. We, as citizens, use the government's services and abide by their "Terms of Use", and so do any companies operating on the land of the government. Think of it like this. Your a customer of a large conglomerate and the contract you've agreed to holds you to certain restrictions but also offers some protections. Through this "master contract" you deal with one of the conglomerate's subsidiaries, perhaps with a lesser contract of their own, and they feel you violate it. In lieu of a government to turn to in order to punish you because they lack the means to do so themselves, they turn to their parent company which has much more muscle. The conglomerate then decides, per the contract you agreed to, how to punish you. Maybe they even decide to end the contract: exile if the conglomerate's service is land!
The ability to make the rules and punish is merely a question of power. We give the government, or that conglomerate, the ability to make laws and punish us for infractions, and that "big difference" isn't so big. Conceptually it's the same thing; it's only the scale and names we give that differ. Reference any number of visions of the future that have government replaced by corporations; each with their own militaries, etc. At that point it's really just many small governments. It absolutely is a question of power, but not a mere one! As I said above on law enforcement, government has a monopoly on the use of force -- be that to imprison criminals or collect tax revenue. It's not analogous to think of the government in terms of a private corporation because they have power no private citizen ever has. In the example you made of a contract and issues with a subcontractor, the differences are a) you would have still entered into the contract voluntarily and agreed to the terms before action commenced (as opposed to a governmental analogy where you're bound by the terms unless you "opt out" by leaving the country), and more importantly b) the conglomerate would still be bound by the same laws and restrictions on use of force that you yourself are. You absolutely can contract away certain freedoms in our system (and incur liability if you don't abide by the terms), but that still wouldn't give a corporate megalith indiscriminate power over how to remedy a breach. Finally it's worth noting, even if you make the contract and then breach, the conglomerate itself would still have no power to enforce the contract, whatever it says. They'd still have to take you to court, and ultimately it would require the power monopoly of the government to enforce the terms (btw I absolutely support governmental backing for enforcement of contracts). Look, guys, I'm not advocating anarchy or saying that there should be no government or taxes whatsoever. I'm arguing from the standpoint that all government intervention is inherently bad and a violation of your rights, but that in some situations it has to be tolerated in order for society to function. Rather than questioning the relative evil of any given law, I'd start by saying "Government by default is bad. Now, why should we tolerate our rights being violated here, in spite of that?" Quite oddly I'm reminded of a situation that took place some time back involving - of all people - President Bush. He attended some convention that had a comic who quite aggressively made fun of him. People were calling for some legal punishment because they believed that the president qualified as a "captive audience" that couldn't "not listen" to what the comic was saying, because to leave would have been a breach of protocol. Now lets say you have an area that was once prosperous due to the steel industry. The steel industry then packs their bags and moves overseas leaving the area with high unemployment and little opportunity. As time passes, companies of the past pull out or go out of business. The JC Penny's and Sears, which once had tiny shops, lose interest in remaining in any capacity. In short, the area is commercially dying. Then in swoops WalMart - giving everybody in the area someplace close to shop for food, clothes, and essentially everything. The last remaining shops buckle under the competition and WalMart becomes the only place within 50 miles to go to for everything you need. That starts to sound pretty similar, doesn't it? WalMart specifically went there in order to corner effectively every market and give the locals no practical alternatives. Aren't they, then, effectively a "captive audience"? Sure they could logically and legally go someplace else, but can they do so practically? Heck, nowadays, could older people getting retirement afford the gas to go someplace else, far away? The difference is I don't believe that comic thought to himself "I'm going to pick on the president because protocol won't let him leave". I suspect WalMart thought the exact opposite. The free market is built around the type of thing WalMart just did - placing your stores such that you run the competition out and become the primary source of products for those nearby. That's morally as bad, in my opinion, as was implied by the accusations against the comic. So while you inherently distrust government, I inherently distrust the companies that make up the free market. The government is, at least in theory, answerable to us. That WalMart that's exploiting the people in that area... who are they answerable to for their actions? P.S. I grew up in that area. I saw the smoke stacks of a now-abandoned steel mill from my back yard. My aunt is a person on retirement that can't afford to go far away for groceries. There's a WalMart planned to go up in a neighboring town, not far away by rural standards.
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