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Lead Salad wrote:Yeah, Canada was a bad example. I already knew that, too. Still, the Europeans seem to have it right. If they were a 2 hour drive away from Bellingham, they'd also be in ur clinics gettin ur Advil. Win Cookies Awarded: 7 (bawwwwww)
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I think many people have an aversion to the government administrating anything given it's past record on government mandated programs. I believe it comes down to the fear of corruption and/or the typical out of control spending we typically see in these programs. Also, there seems to be no real accountability in these programs(US based).
Given that, that's not to say that the private industry has done much better when it comes to health care. The French system seems to work because insurers and physicians signed off on certain provisions of the system, although France now realizes that paying for the system through the payroll tax system is causing employers to cut back on hiring and is considering a tax on earned and unearned income.
Another thing that makes their system work is that 90% of the citizens have private insurance to cover the portions not covered in the system. Also, there are limits on malpractice claims and doctors typically are paid less than American doctors are paid. There are many other differences but I won't list them here.
In short, a US based national health care system would be huge and if based on the French model would require that most Americans purchase some form of basic insurance. Honestly, I wish the U.S. could come up with a national health care plan. I just don't think I trust the government enough to manage it without screwing it up.
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What j00 talkin' bout, TP? Guvment programs are da shit! HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:endyss wrote:[quote=Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart] In those terms, I don't see how the private insurance industry doesn't function as a competitive market. If one carrier chooses not to cover a group, it creates an opportunity for someone else to come in and do it. If you want to compete in an area someone else is already in, you need to offer better services, a lower price, etc. Part of the problem is that health issues don't really lend themselves to market-based solutions (setting aside the question of rights). If you have cancer or whatever and you try to get health insurance you are pretty well fucked unless you are super rich, even though you are going to be ready to pay every penny you earn to stay alive. It's not like you are really in a position to figure that shit out, and the insurance companies are not on your side. You're talking about applying competition to whether or not people live or die and hoping that market-forces will work out equitably, they haven't. The primary cause of bankruptcy in the US is medical bills. If you get really really sick in this country and you are not rich then the odds are that you are fucked if you survive, and your family is fucked if you don't. We have a primarily market-based health care system and it costs more and delivers less, it makes no sense at all why people think "socialized medicine" is some terrible scary thing when every civilized nation on earth has it and it works better than what we have. It's absurd. The primary argument for "government-provided healthcare" is that it is more efficient. Just gonna let you in on a little secret here, Dick... We're all mortal. Nothing is going to prevent any of us from dying some day. People are going to die from natural causes such as cancer, lung disease, etc. It's natural. You can't save everyone and you won't save everyone even if you had a massive functional government program. The fact is, the percentage of people that actually pass away in this nation due to such extremes like cancer are relatively low. Health care isn't a crisis in this country, but it always is when it's not the next best thing right? If we had the system you want, I bet you'd be complaining about something or how we need a better system.
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RichardAwesome wrote:Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:endyss wrote:[quote=Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart] In those terms, I don't see how the private insurance industry doesn't function as a competitive market. If one carrier chooses not to cover a group, it creates an opportunity for someone else to come in and do it. If you want to compete in an area someone else is already in, you need to offer better services, a lower price, etc. Part of the problem is that health issues don't really lend themselves to market-based solutions (setting aside the question of rights). If you have cancer or whatever and you try to get health insurance you are pretty well fucked unless you are super rich, even though you are going to be ready to pay every penny you earn to stay alive. It's not like you are really in a position to figure that shit out, and the insurance companies are not on your side. You're talking about applying competition to whether or not people live or die and hoping that market-forces will work out equitably, they haven't. The primary cause of bankruptcy in the US is medical bills. If you get really really sick in this country and you are not rich then the odds are that you are fucked if you survive, and your family is fucked if you don't. We have a primarily market-based health care system and it costs more and delivers less, it makes no sense at all why people think "socialized medicine" is some terrible scary thing when every civilized nation on earth has it and it works better than what we have. It's absurd. The primary argument for "government-provided healthcare" is that it is more efficient. Just gonna let you in on a little secret here, Dick... We're all mortal. Nothing is going to prevent any of us from dying some day. People are going to die from natural causes such as cancer, lung disease, etc. It's natural. You can't save everyone and you won't save everyone even if you had a massive functional government program. The fact is, the percentage of people that actually pass away in this nation due to such extremes like cancer are relatively low. Health care isn't a crisis in this country, but it always is when it's not the next best thing right? If we had the system you want, I bet you'd be complaining about something or how we need a better system. I'll always be arguing for a better system, it's part of being a progressive. Fuck the status quo, a better world is possible. Re: Everyone dies - that's not an argument to accept the dysfunctional system we have now. Health care is a crisis in this country, have you ever not had health care? Have you ever been in the position where you or someone you love is fucked up and needs medical attention but you know that if you seek it out you will be financially fucked? Something as simple as a few stitches can cost over $1000. I've been there, it's a bad place to be. The number of uninsured people in the US is something like 50,000,000. Hell, our infant mortality rate is the lowest of any industrialized nation - if we bumped that up a few percent thousands of babies wouldn't die. Our health care system is a fucking crime against humanity. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.  
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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:Have you ever been in the position where you or someone you love is fucked up and needs medical attention but you know that if you seek it out you will be financially fucked? Something as simple as a few stitches can cost over $1000. I've been there, it's a bad place to be. The number of uninsured people in the US is something like 50,000,000. Again, government intervention. Doctors have very little incentive to keep their costs low, since many people are already covered by Medicare or Medicaid. If you look at an aspect of health care that's treated entirely as elective, such as plastic surgery or lasik vision correction, you'll see a thriving free market where the medical professionals offer personalized service and competitive rates to fight for your dollar. If there's anything our current system should do, it's to let private insurers offer catastrophic coverage only and people pay out of pocket for little bumps and aches. The alternative you're advocating -- government picking up MORE of the tab and creating even MORE bureaucracy -- is the exact thing that got us where we are now. Doctors charge for unnecessary tests to cover their asses (because another special interest lobbying for the dollars of the help-the-poor-through-universal-healthcare folks is the trial attorneys, for whom tort reform and damage caps are their bane), and they know some big entity, be it the government or insurance or employer, is already probably picking up the tab for whatever they charge you, so fuck why the hell not charge an arm and a leg, and woe to the little guy that tries to make it outside the system. Answer: we need MORE government to cover THOSE guys too!  Oh and btw, that "50 million uninsured" line the Democrats keep trotting out is the biggest BS half truth currently circulating. That number includes the tens of millions of illegal immigrants, and while I'm not trying to derail the discussion to the plight of the poor downtrodden man whose first act in the United States was by breaking its sovereign law, I don't know that nearly as many people would rah-rah to the charge of universal health coverage for those folks as well. HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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Razor wrote:Sorry about that guys. I did not want to start a fight.
FIGHT... that's the nature of gamers and politic addicts...
Can you imagine what they might say when I told them the only important issue to me was Pro-life... I would be nailed to a cross...
Peace bro... I respect your desire for peace... "And they will cry 'peace, peace', but there will be no peace but sudden destruction...." ... again I cry peace for Jerusalem..."
Politicians... are we not suppose to pray for them so we can live in peace and safety... me t'inks we've lost our way...
As my elderly physician said, "Our nation is in serious trouble.".... yep... me t'inks we have lost our way... we reject, kill and praise bud lite... not to mention stealing and stuff...
Peace
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endyss wrote:
Oh and btw, that "50 million uninsured" line the Democrats keep trotting out is the biggest BS half truth currently circulating. That number includes the tens of millions of illegal immigrants, and while I'm not trying to derail the discussion to the plight of the poor downtrodden man whose first act in the United States was by breaking its sovereign law, I don't know that nearly as many people would rah-rah to the charge of universal health coverage for those folks as well.
I'm fairly certain I've heard numerous Republicans use this number as well, including McCain and Bush. Trying to say it's a line the Democrats use doesn't really hold up. The census bureau seems to be the source on the number, they use the term "Americans" in describing who they are counting with it. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.
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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:I'm fairly certain I've heard numerous Republicans use this number as well, including McCain and Bush. Trying to say it's a line the Democrats use doesn't really hold up. The census bureau seems to be the source on the number, they use the term "Americans" in describing who they are counting with it. Well I don't give a flying crap WHO has said it, but I'm quite sure the "47 million uninsured" bs includes illegal immigrants (Source: American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research) Btw, the linked article also addresses some of the other arguments against the current US health care system including life expectancy (US has higher obesity and accident/homicide-related deaths), infant mortality (low birth weight, teenage pregnancy) and the overall increase in health care costs (scientific advances don't come cheap). HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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I'll bring this up because I know somebody is going to look it up, and I don't feel like it. Supposedly the average Norwegian spends less in taxes than the average American spends on healthcare, and gets much better coverage. Spend less, get better coverage? Sounds pretty good to me. As long as nobody is unfairly charged I'm for it.
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Lead Salad wrote:I'll bring this up because I know somebody is going to look it up, and I don't feel like it.
Supposedly the average Norwegian spends less in taxes than the average American spends on health care, and gets much better coverage. Spend less, get better coverage? Sounds pretty good to me. As long as nobody is unfairly charged I'm for it.
Norway is a much smaller country. Anyway, not a fair comparison. Heck I hear the Norsemen paddled across the Atlantic using only their manhood as oars. Why would they need health care?
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