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Rank: Fecal Impaction For the Win!

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Work is in the way of me responding
Quote:
"Who the fuck is Leon Switch and why does he know we have a dog?" - Mrs. Giller
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Rank: You're gonna stick that where?

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endyss wrote:
Come on, guys!
I meant to inspire discussion... debate... Delta62 had the right idea. Now I know not all you wacko liberals and conservative hatemongers (lovingly said to both) can't possibly have been entirely swayed into changing your whole worldview by my glowing writeup of libertarianism, however eloquent it may have been. Where do you disagree? Where do you think the libertarian philosophy is flawed?
I think anything beyond two paragraphs and you trigger most peoples gag reflex.  The "States" argument is always that they want to take care of the people. The reality is that the larger and more centralized the government the less efficient they are at taking care of the minority. Just look at the Soviet Unions "workers paradise". Centralized economic planning looks good on the surface yet is an oversimplified argument that appeals to the naive. Its major flaws are, a:People have every right to horde their money if they so choose. b:A government produces nothing and has no income so If you hire a million people to redistribute the wealth you have to both house and pay them which cost many billions of dollars each year.c:Many people are greedy and wasteful and in government the same rule applies. This results in much more monies being wasted and ultimately the burden always falls on those you are claiming to help(the minority). For maximum equality power must be distributed far and wide and not centralized. I have to say as well that I believe in liberty but the term libertarian has been abused and I don't support the libertarian party for the same reason that I don't support any party. Parties themselves are poison. They are a clubhouse to make people feel special and distract from the purpose of government. Note that most of this is not so much a direct response as it is general commentary.
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Rank: Coathanger Abortion

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I'm very sympathetic to libertarian philosophy but I think it's ultimately unworkable, at least in it's purest form. I'm about as radical a civil libertarian as they come, but when it comes to economics that's a whole other story. The free market does not work. It's not a sustainable model, it works in a whole lot of areas but you can't turn everything into a market and you can't have every market unregulated. What about security? Will there be a market for police services? For firefighters? In my view there are certain public goods which don't translate well to a market. The application of market forces leads to certain inequalities, when it comes to consumer goods that isn't a big deal - the rich get the nice toys and the better foods, the poor watch crappy TV and eat McDonalds. When it comes to issues of justice though that's another matter. Should the poor man's house burn down because he can't afford to pay for firefighters? Should he not be allowed to travel by car because he can't afford to pay the fee for the private freeways? Which leads me to an important distinction that libertarians tend to overlook. Rights are both positive and negative, their affirmative and restrictive. To illustrate: The 5th Amendment articulates the right to a fair trial that all free people have. Now that means you have a right to not be tried in an unfair way. So does that means the state is obligated to create and provide a functioning justice system in which your economic situation is not a factor. If you can't afford a lawyer one will be provided for you. A right to a fair trial is a right to a free lawyer. It's a positive right TO something. In the libertarian view rights are never positive, you never have an affirmative right TO something. I can keep going if anyone is interested or if you need clarification. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.  
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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:[...] In the libertarian view rights are never positive, you never have an affirmative right TO something. I can keep going if anyone is interested or if you need clarification. Ok, go.
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Rank: Coathanger Abortion

Groups: {pDs} Member, Server Admin
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HeXploiT wrote:endyss wrote:
Come on, guys!
I meant to inspire discussion... debate... Delta62 had the right idea. Now I know not all you wacko liberals and conservative hatemongers (lovingly said to both) can't possibly have been entirely swayed into changing your whole worldview by my glowing writeup of libertarianism, however eloquent it may have been. Where do you disagree? Where do you think the libertarian philosophy is flawed?
I think anything beyond two paragraphs and you trigger most peoples gag reflex.  The "States" argument is always that they want to take care of the people. The reality is that the larger and more centralized the government the less efficient they are at taking care of the minority. Just look at the Soviet Unions "workers paradise". Centralized economic planning looks good on the surface yet is an oversimplified argument that appeals to the naive. Its major flaws are, a:People have every right to horde their money if they so choose. b:A government produces nothing and has no income so If you hire a million people to redistribute the wealth you have to both house and pay them which cost many billions of dollars each year.c:Many people are greedy and wasteful and in government the same rule applies. This results in much more monies being wasted and ultimately the burden always falls on those you are claiming to help(the minority). For maximum equality power must be distributed far and wide and not centralized. I have to say as well that I believe in liberty but the term libertarian has been abused and I don't support the libertarian party for the same reason that I don't support any party. Parties themselves are poison. They are a clubhouse to make people feel special and distract from the purpose of government. Note that most of this is not so much a direct response as it is general commentary. Re: The larger the government the less efficient it is at taking care of the minority, that's a false dichotomy. Sweden has a larger government per capita than Sudan, yet which takes care of the minority better? That's an extreme example, but it's more accurate than the Soviet Union - which took relatively good care of it's people, all things considered. Re: Central planning - it sure worked for Stalin. He turned what was essentially a feudal backwater full of peasants into an industrialized superpower. It was the most rapid industrialization in history. And really, if you think about it a bit - what is it that the big multinational corporations are doing? It sure looks like central planning. Re: Government produces nothing. Prima facie that's an absurd argument! Government produces a crazy amount of stuff, at least most government does, certainly all the liberal democracies do which is what we're really talking about here. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.  
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Rank: You're gonna stick that where?

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Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:HeXploiT wrote:endyss wrote:
Come on, guys!
I meant to inspire discussion... debate... Delta62 had the right idea. Now I know not all you wacko liberals and conservative hatemongers (lovingly said to both) can't possibly have been entirely swayed into changing your whole worldview by my glowing writeup of libertarianism, however eloquent it may have been. Where do you disagree? Where do you think the libertarian philosophy is flawed?
I think anything beyond two paragraphs and you trigger most peoples gag reflex.  The "States" argument is always that they want to take care of the people. The reality is that the larger and more centralized the government the less efficient they are at taking care of the minority. Just look at the Soviet Unions "workers paradise". Centralized economic planning looks good on the surface yet is an oversimplified argument that appeals to the naive. Its major flaws are, a:People have every right to horde their money if they so choose. b:A government produces nothing and has no income so If you hire a million people to redistribute the wealth you have to both house and pay them which cost many billions of dollars each year.c:Many people are greedy and wasteful and in government the same rule applies. This results in much more monies being wasted and ultimately the burden always falls on those you are claiming to help(the minority). For maximum equality power must be distributed far and wide and not centralized. I have to say as well that I believe in liberty but the term libertarian has been abused and I don't support the libertarian party for the same reason that I don't support any party. Parties themselves are poison. They are a clubhouse to make people feel special and distract from the purpose of government. Note that most of this is not so much a direct response as it is general commentary. Re: The larger the government the less efficient it is at taking care of the minority, that's a false dichotomy. Sweden has a larger government per capita than Sudan, yet which takes care of the minority better? That's an extreme example, but it's more accurate than the Soviet Union - which took relatively good care of it's people, all things considered. Re: Central planning - it sure worked for Stalin. He turned what was essentially a feudal backwater full of peasants into an industrialized superpower. It was the most rapid industrialization in history. And really, if you think about it a bit - what is it that the big multinational corporations are doing? It sure looks like central planning. Re: Government produces nothing. Prima facie that's an absurd argument! Government produces a crazy amount of stuff, at least most government does, certainly all the liberal democracies do which is what we're really talking about here. You can't compare Sweden to the United States. You can compare Sweden to say...ONE state in the United States. That's like comparing dates and watermelons. The founding fathers weren't for anarchy and that's not what I'm arguing. Government planning and organization can work quite well on a local level and that is exactly why we have(or had) states rights. There is no perfect system so the best system possible is a balance. Local government elected by the people for the people and not to be trumped by a higher government. This is exactly what the founding fathers were shooting for. Washington, Jefferson and Franklin were extremely educated men who knew the history of governments and had they intended anarchy they never would have signed the documents that guide our nation. As for Stalin...everything he did came at the cost of turning a people into slaves and murdering millions of his own countrymen. This was a success?
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HeXploiT wrote:Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:HeXploiT wrote:endyss wrote:
Come on, guys!
I meant to inspire discussion... debate... Delta62 had the right idea. Now I know not all you wacko liberals and conservative hatemongers (lovingly said to both) can't possibly have been entirely swayed into changing your whole worldview by my glowing writeup of libertarianism, however eloquent it may have been. Where do you disagree? Where do you think the libertarian philosophy is flawed?
I think anything beyond two paragraphs and you trigger most peoples gag reflex.  The "States" argument is always that they want to take care of the people. The reality is that the larger and more centralized the government the less efficient they are at taking care of the minority. Just look at the Soviet Unions "workers paradise". Centralized economic planning looks good on the surface yet is an oversimplified argument that appeals to the naive. Its major flaws are, a:People have every right to horde their money if they so choose. b:A government produces nothing and has no income so If you hire a million people to redistribute the wealth you have to both house and pay them which cost many billions of dollars each year.c:Many people are greedy and wasteful and in government the same rule applies. This results in much more monies being wasted and ultimately the burden always falls on those you are claiming to help(the minority). For maximum equality power must be distributed far and wide and not centralized. I have to say as well that I believe in liberty but the term libertarian has been abused and I don't support the libertarian party for the same reason that I don't support any party. Parties themselves are poison. They are a clubhouse to make people feel special and distract from the purpose of government. Note that most of this is not so much a direct response as it is general commentary. Re: The larger the government the less efficient it is at taking care of the minority, that's a false dichotomy. Sweden has a larger government per capita than Sudan, yet which takes care of the minority better? That's an extreme example, but it's more accurate than the Soviet Union - which took relatively good care of it's people, all things considered. Re: Central planning - it sure worked for Stalin. He turned what was essentially a feudal backwater full of peasants into an industrialized superpower. It was the most rapid industrialization in history. And really, if you think about it a bit - what is it that the big multinational corporations are doing? It sure looks like central planning. Re: Government produces nothing. Prima facie that's an absurd argument! Government produces a crazy amount of stuff, at least most government does, certainly all the liberal democracies do which is what we're really talking about here. You can't compare Sweden to the United States. You can compare Sweden to say...ONE state in the United States. That's like comparing dates and watermelons. The founding fathers weren't for anarchy and that's not what I'm arguing. Government planning and organization can work quite well on a local level and that is exactly why we have(or had) states rights. There is no perfect system so the best system possible is a balance. Local government elected by the people for the people and not to be trumped by a higher government. This is exactly what the founding fathers were shooting for. Washington, Jefferson and Franklin were extremely educated men who knew the history of governments and had they intended anarchy they never would have signed the documents that guide our nation. As for Stalin...everything he did came at the cost of turning a people into slaves and murdering millions of his own countrymen. This was a success? This hagiographic interpretation of the founding fathers is misleading. They were effectively the aristos of the colonies, they were a bunch of elites who designed a system that perpetuated their power. It drives me crazy how libertarians always try to turn the founders of the US into these mythical political geniuses, they were a bunch of rich slave owners who happened to use the popular revolutionary rhetoric of the time. All men were not created equal, that was a slogan as much as "from each according to their ability..." If you want to design a more effective system of governance you won't find it by looking backwards except to catalog mistakes. I do agree that government planning tends to work more effectively on smaller scales, but it can be scaled up. And it's silly to say that local government should not be trumped by higher government - that's the basis of all liberal democracies and is the fundamental principle which ultimately protects our rights. Libertarian utopia will survive less than a generation without this fundamental principle, I doubt it would survive more than a few generations with it as well since it inevitably leads to the growth of government, but that's why libertarianism doesn't work. Re: Sweden, why can't you compare Sweden to the US or any other nation? Per capita government expenditures translates across population disparities. Also note that I compared it to Sudan, we could pick another country if you would like, the point is still valid. Re: Anarchy, the free market is anarchy until the oligopolies inevitably form. The invisible hand will pick your pocket unless the government has regulatory power over the economy. It's really that simple. Markets invariably require state intervention to function more efficiently, more justly, and more fairly. Without state intervention all free markets become dysfunctional. Re: Stalin, if you compare the death toll and other negative effects of US industrialization to Stalinist industrialization it may give you pause. Stalin absolutely was a success, he was one of the most successful leaders in history. I disagree completely with his ideology, but he certainly got the job done and provides the perfect counterpoint to the silly argument that centralized government doesn't work. I'm not a fan of centralized government and am not advocating it per se, but clearly it can be made to work. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.  
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HeXploiT wrote:I think anything beyond two paragraphs and you trigger most peoples gag reflex. 
And to the extent that it prevents trolling or ignorant replies, I'm all for it. 
HeXploiT wrote:I have to say as well that I believe in liberty but the term libertarian has been abused and I don't support the libertarian party for the same reason that I don't support any party. Parties themselves are poison. They are a clubhouse to make people feel special and distract from the purpose of government.
I didn't use the word "party" attached to my thoughts on libertarianism intentionally. Parties should be a vehicle to an end, and I'm arguing for the political philosophy in general, not anyone's conversion to a different voting block. That said, I wouldn't see a rise in the number of libertarian party voters as a bad thing (note: I'm not technically registered Libertarian either).
Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:[Libertarianism is] not a sustainable model, it works in a whole lot of areas but you can't turn everything into a market and you can't have every market unregulated. What about security? Will there be a market for police services? For firefighters? In my view there are certain public goods which don't translate well to a market. The application of market forces leads to certain inequalities, when it comes to consumer goods that isn't a big deal - the rich get the nice toys and the better foods, the poor watch crappy TV and eat McDonalds. When it comes to issues of justice though that's another matter. Should the poor man's house burn down because he can't afford to pay for firefighters? Should he not be allowed to travel by car because he can't afford to pay the fee for the private freeways?
As I conceded before, there is certainly a role to be played by a central state, specifically that of law enforcement and protection of individual liberties. They are services to which inequality of distribution can lead to a breakdown of society absent a central authority (I highly recommend Robert Nozick's fascinating "Anarchy, State, and Utopia" for more on why this is the case). I'm just saying, don't confuse libertarianism with anarchism, and the minimal state with the absence of one.
Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:Which leads me to an important distinction that libertarians tend to overlook. Rights are both positive and negative, their affirmative and restrictive. To illustrate: The 5th Amendment articulates the right to a fair trial that all free people have. Now that means you have a right to not be tried in an unfair way. So does that means the state is obligated to create and provide a functioning justice system in which your economic situation is not a factor. If you can't afford a lawyer one will be provided for you. A right to a fair trial is a right to a free lawyer. It's a positive right TO something. In the libertarian view rights are never positive, you never have an affirmative right TO something.
On the contrary, individual rights are positive. It's government restrictions on those rights that are inherently negative. Some of them, such as for law enforcement, are necessary to a functioning democracy, but they should be as minimal as possible. Any more than what's absolutely necessary needlessly infringes someone else's liberties and creates a concentrated, abusable center of power.
As a side note: the 5th Amd. right to counsel, at least as detailed in Miranda, is only applicable to prevent self-incrimination (hence, "taking the Fifth"), and that to deny a suspect access to his attorney during a custodial interrogation would violate due process. The meatier right to counsel is in the 6th Amd., which is I believe the one you are referring to -- that an attorney would be provided for a defendant if he cannot afford one, to appear for him at various stages of the trial. First off, this only applies to criminal proceedings and is a relatively recent development in our legal system (past ~80 years). It also deals with procedural due process, or a procedural liberty, if you will. The greater debate, in my opinion, is over substantive liberties, since I think we are largely in agreement that some form of government and legal system is necessary. The question is how much.
Lastly...
Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:Re: The larger the government the less efficient it is at taking care of the minority, that's a false dichotomy. Sweden has a larger government per capita than Sudan, yet which takes care of the minority better? That's an extreme example, but it's more accurate than the Soviet Union - which took relatively good care of it's people, all things considered.
Re: Central planning - it sure worked for Stalin. He turned what was essentially a feudal backwater full of peasants into an industrialized superpower. It was the most rapid industrialization in history. And really, if you think about it a bit - what is it that the big multinational corporations are doing? It sure looks like central planning.
Current estimates put the number of people who died needlessly under Stalin's regime at a minimum of 10 million (4 million by repression and 6 million from famine), with others suggesting it's closer to 20 million. Are you seriously praising that? More importantly for our discussion, are you seriously comparing the actions of contemporary multinational corporations to that??
It's absurd to compare the two for any number of reasons, the most basic being the fundamentally different purpose of a governmental regime versus a corporation. The latter exists solely to create a profit for its investors, and so could arguably be said not to care about "the people," but the former should only exist by the consent of and for the purpose of protecting the rights of "the people." To say Stalin's regime was successful by today's corporate standards, despite the millions of deaths that occurred under his watch, is like saying Hitler's plan wasn't all that bad because, hey, he had supply chain management down pat!
I'm not saying that a welfare state can't function if the people don't mind a 60% tax rate (i.e. Sweden). I'm saying that I believe the money I earn for the work I do should be mine first, except for what is absolutely necessary to help fund a minimal central government.
I had to add...
Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:Libertarian utopia will survive less than a generation without this fundamental principle, I doubt it would survive more than a few generations with it as well since it inevitably leads to the growth of government, but that's why libertarianism doesn't work.
Why is this, again? HolyJaw wrote:In the end, everything Endyss said.
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I missed you endyss. I'm way out of practice on this stuff, but I recall finding Rawls a hell of a lot more compelling than Nozick. I think I am arguing against a different strain of libertarianism than the one you are arguing for. Yours doesn't sounds substantively different than classical liberalism, which is something I think is generally a functional system of governance (although I think it inevitably transforms itself over time). I also think we just have different views of what fundamental rights actually exist and thus our vision for what the duties of the state are differ. I'd guess that you don't believe people have a fundamental right to an education or health care. This gets back to the point I was trying to make about positive rights as they relate to the justice system. I think in the same way that a right to due process inherently requires the government to create an infrastructure of justice the right to an education requires a similar infrastructure. I don't think we really have fundamental differences over principles, I'd say we both think government should be as minimal as possible and as efficient as possible. Re: Stalin, if he were alive today he would be the most successful CEO on earth. Stalinism wasn't about the people, the point I was trying to make is that from the standpoint of pure government interest it was wildly successful. It turned a nation of ignorant peasants into the second greatest superpower in human history. Stalinism showed what a government could really accomplish. I suppose you could say Hitler proved the same thing in a different way. I'm not saying they provide good examples, they're just evidence that other systems of governance can work - something I don't think we necessarily disagree on. Again, you're a different kind of libertarian than I usually discuss these things with. Razor wrote:Killing people is good therapy.  
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Rank: You're gonna stick that where?

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Quote: This hagiographic interpretation of the founding fathers is misleading. They were effectively the aristos of the colonies, they were a bunch of elites who designed a system that perpetuated their power. It drives me crazy how libertarians always try to turn the founders of the US into these mythical political geniuses, they were a bunch of rich slave owners who happened to use the popular revolutionary rhetoric of the time.
You are reading waaaay too far into what I said. I'm not putting any of them on a pedestal. I merely stated that they were extremely well educated and had a sense of history which they did. Don't categorize me into the majority because of a few sentences. These men were far from perfect however they were attempting to create a MORE perfect union and many of them shunned powers offered to them in order to better this nation. Congress wanted to make George Washington the King of the United States and he completely rejected the idea. Quote:
All men were not created equal, that was a slogan as much as "from each according to their ability..."
I have always interpreted this to the extent that, when born, each individual has equal value. I believe the founders thought like this although I doubt any of us can prove such a broad statement. Quote: If you want to design a more effective system of governance you won't find it by looking backwards except to catalog mistakes. I do agree that government planning tends to work more effectively on smaller scales, but it can be scaled up. And it's silly to say that local government should not be trumped by higher government - that's the basis of all liberal democracies and is the fundamental principle which ultimately protects our rights. Libertarian utopia will survive less than a generation without this fundamental principle, I doubt it would survive more than a few generations with it as well since it inevitably leads to the growth of government, but that's why libertarianism doesn't work.
You seem to have the tendency to make everything so black & white. Obviously the federal government should have some function overseeing states or what would be its purpose? Quote: Re: Sweden, why can't you compare Sweden to the US or any other nation? Per capita government expenditures translates across population disparities. Also note that I compared it to Sudan, we could pick another country if you would like, the point is still valid.
Actually in many circumstances you simply cannot. The larger the government the more complex it becomes and so the more inneficiant. New Orleans is but one example of where central economic planning can fail catastrophically. Quote: Re: Anarchy, the free market is anarchy until the oligopolies inevitably form. The invisible hand will pick your pocket unless the government has regulatory power over the economy. It's really that simple. Markets invariably require state intervention to function more efficiently, more justly, and more fairly. Without state intervention all free markets become dysfunctional.
Current monopolies in the United States would not even have been possible if it were not for government regulation. Enrons raping of California was a prime example of this as energy companies had their hands tied do to stiff regulation mostly brought about by huge private lobbies(oil companies) in Washington. Unfortunately the ignorant majority view this as what happens when you "free the market". What a fucking dupe! The market never was free. Government subsidized monopolies are far worse than any monopoly ever created in a truly free market. Please note that this is not a black and white argument and I am not saying that 100% of all regulation is bad. Quote:
Re: Stalin, if you compare the death toll and other negative effects of US industrialization to Stalinist industrialization it may give you pause. Stalin absolutely was a success, he was one of the most successful leaders in history. I disagree completely with his ideology, but he certainly got the job done and provides the perfect counterpoint to the silly argument that centralized government doesn't work. I'm not a fan of centralized government and am not advocating it per se, but clearly it can be made to work.
I'm not really sure I need to even argue this point with you. How do you gauge success? Stalin murdered twenty million men, women and children. What did he accomplish that made this a success? Also I am well aware of what America is doing and has done. We are no saints. I would say we are a reflection in many ways of the Roman empire. The truth is there probably never has been a "good" empire on the face of the earth. But judging the Soviet Union by sizing it up with America just doesn't work. That would be like judging how decent of a human being I am by looking at your actions and character. Instead, each should be judged on its own merits.
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Ok Endyss. Here is why I think the mainstream idea of libertarianism is flawed. Ron Paul's type of libertarians, or minarchists, stand in the way of democracy and progress. They want to deconstruct the state rather than make it truly free. So in Ron Paul's america, what happens to people like me who want to pay taxes to support public and centralized education, healthcare, welfare, and scientific research? My idea of liberty is to make citizenship voluntary. That way people like me who want to live in a governed society can, and people who don't want to pay taxes can form a standalone complex, so to speak (yes, I am taking phrases from Ghost in the Shell. Suck it.)
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Lead Salad wrote:Ok Endyss. Here is why I think the mainstream idea of libertarianism is flawed. Ron Paul's type of libertarians, or minarchists, stand in the way of democracy and progress. They want to deconstruct the state rather than make it truly free.
So in Ron Paul's america, what happens to people like me who want to pay taxes to support public and centralized education, healthcare, welfare, and scientific research? My idea of liberty is to make citizenship voluntary. That way people like me who want to live in a governed society can, and people who don't want to pay taxes can form a standalone complex, so to speak (yes, I am taking phrases from Ghost in the Shell. Suck it.) I want to fund science as well I also desire to fund the nation of Israel and certain charitable organizations. All these things I can and will do without the help of the federal government. You make it sound as if private organizations don't exist. That's rather silly. I offer you a challenge. Look up how much money the U.S. government has sent for the recent hurricane in Burma. Then find out how much the red cross sent. This is merely one private entity. Which do you think sent more and which was more effective?
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You kinda missed the point there, but for what it's worth, private charities may sometimes be more effective than a government but ultimately neither can fit any job alone.
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endyss wrote:
Bringing us back on topic a bit (Ron Paul's ideas), I've come to the conclusion that libertarianism is the only form of political philosophy that can ultimately work, because it is the most in line with fundamental human nature.
Liberal philosophy, or social liberalism, is flawed in its reliance on the state (i.e. force) to arbitrarily redistribute one thing or another (money, education, health care, opportunity) in pursuit of the preservation of civil rights. Conservative philosophy, or social conservatism, is equally unworkable in the long run because it risks dismissing one man's civil rights in preservation of another man's traditional values. The problem with both of those ideas is that they ultimately rely on one entity's (be that an individual's, a party's, or even "society's") perceptions of the way things should be in order to make policy decisions. You may believe gays have a right to marry, or that everyone has a right to basic health care, but how can you irrefutably tell someone who disagrees that their belief is wrong? On the flip side, you may believe that embryonic stem cell research is immoral or that Creationism should be taught in science class, but to impose those beliefs on everyone via government mandate is to at some level deny others the right to come to a different conclusion. No matter which way you come down on it, one person is imposing his beliefs on someone else, and right and wrong become a matter of who has the greatest ability to enforce.
The only real long term solution, in my humble opinion, is embodied in libertarian philosophy. At it's core, it is the individual's right to believe and act as they think best, restricted only such that the exercise of such rights does not interfere with any other individual's right to do the same. It recognizes the inherent selfishness of human nature -- that at the end of the day, despite anything one might say to the contrary, people will choose to act in the manner that they believe most benefits them. This applies at the individual level: if I think sitting on my couch all day every day eating Burger King and entertaining myself is what will give me great pleasure, and to me the immediate gratification outweighs the long term health risks, I'll likely do it. It applies at the macro level: if the price of oil increases to a point that it becomes economically viable to invest serious capital in developing alternative sources of fuel, you can bet there will be companies pursuing it. And of course, it applies to all aspects of politics as well: if a politician can gain more power and retain it by voting for pork barrel spending, increasing governmental regulation of health care and promising it "for free," or supporting a war only tangentially related to the attacks on 9/11, you can bet he or she will do it.
Libertarianism is the ultimate free market. Let people/companies/industries do what they want (or what they believe is best). You can put whatever restrictions in place that you want, that's still what they're all going to do anyway. If the government never taxed cigarettes, the price would be lower and more people might smoke, because at some level that's what they wanted to do. Raise the tax to $500 per pack, and almost no one would smoke, because they're still making that assessment about what's best for them, and given the cost, choosing not to do it. Ban smoking entirely -- most people will choose not to because in their assessment, it's in their best interest not to run afoul of the law. But at the same time, it will incentivize others to fill the vacuum and provide product to those people whose assessment is different (i.e. they want to smoke, despite it being illegal). No matter what you do, people will always choose to do what they believe is best for them given all the circumstances. All you do by restriction, regulation, and taxation in pursuit of your own individual political philosophy is push around the pieces that make up that assessement. And each time you do it, you infringe on one entity's rights in order to do so.
Common Question #1: Isn't that just anarchy?
Enshrining individual rights doesn't mean societal breakdown or the abolition of all government. A state would be necessary to perform functions that would not practically work on a large scale in a purely market-based system, most especially the protection of individual rights. Breach of contract. Law enforcement. Punishment for crimes. "Aha!" you say, "but what are those laws based on?" Quite simply, the law is broken when I do something (in the free exercise of my individual rights) that hinders your ability to do what you want. Considered objectively, that one basic rule is all you need to guide the whole of government policy.
Common Question #2: Won't that create a world of haves and have nots?
You mean unlike what we have today? Allowing individuals greater freedom to do what they think is in their best interest makes it easier for people to achieve their goals, including material and monetary acquisition. It's all well and good to believe you're doing good by demanding an artificial, government mandated floor for those who fail, but the more floors you create (food, education, housing, health care), the more has to be taken from those that don't need those floors. Leaving aside for the moment the infringement occurring on those individuals' rights, it also creates incentives for them to find ways around the mandates, to become less generous rather than more. Because people will always assess what's best for them differently, they will invariably come to different conclusions and make different choices. Some of those will be better than others; you'll never be able to prevent some from rising and some from falling. The world of the haves and have-nots won't be fixed by giving people the opportunity to fail, but it'll only be exaggerated by drawing an arbitrary line and telling the people on one side, "You are a have-not. You need to be helped," and the people on the other side, "You are a have. You need to pay up."
sorry to bump an old topic, but this is a great writeup. thanks. You wanna take this to Fuck Town? Oh gadzooks, yes!
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