I know you've raised this point before but it really is all fun and games for me. I do rinse and repeat because it seems necessary for the authoritarians among us, but I do actually have a very balanced view of cops. In my job I very often interact with cops, they all love me and I'm totally professional with them. Besides running from the cops when they were rioting and posed a physical danger I have always been a polite upstanding citizen in my interactions with police. As I think everyone here knows I am big believer in liberty and justice and all that good shit, it's just that I am unwilling to bow down to anyone because they've got a uniform or a gun. No gods, no masters.

I have a friend who is a cop, he used to be one of my exes best friends. We've hung out. I helped him get into a masters program. He rescued someone from a burning car last year, got a big award for it and all that. That's totally awesome and the kind of thing most people would be too scared to do. He got an award for it and he absolutely deserved it. Cops do awesome shit that most people never would. That doesn't mean they don't also do really fucked up things. I've seen cops arrest people who I think very likely deserved to be arrested without violating their liberty, I totally respect that because I doubt I could do it. If I knew someone was a rapist or child molester or some equally fucked up thing and it was my job to arrest them I would fuck their shit up. I would make an awesomely horrible cop. It would be all free drugs, constant speeding, and total violence against whoever I thought deserved it. That's why we have laws and thats why you should never trust authority. People who want power over others never deserve it. As citizens of a supposedly free nation we all have a moral duty to never ignore abuses of power carried out in our names. Queue the patriotic music...

Neutrality... LOL. Let me tell you something, Neutrality one of the biggest heaps of bullshit to ever come out of western philosophy.

Anyways I am withdrawing from this discussion which is clearly going nowhere.. not out of concession but of utter lack of desire to continue. I'm still with Dick on this one.

My two cents. Until you sit in that police crusier and get a call about a possible break-in or other crime, most could never imagine what runs thru your head. A radio call come over saying "see the woman at such and such about a possible break-in, witness sees a black man trying to pry the door open. Meet her at such and such address". That's all you get most of the time. After you meet the witness, you have to actually go and investigate. You are by yourself or with a partner and that's it most of the time. You approach, in this case, the house and see someone who matches the description at the door doing something.

Without going into a lot of detail(lol, don't worry), I have been in these situations and trust me, you approach these situations almost knowing nothing, and you do this 20 times a day, and 10 of them are actual crimes. Maybe the next time an officer asks you what you think is a dumb, racist, stupid, or lame question, keep that in mind. Not to say there aren't bad ones, but most of the time they are just trying to fill in the details before they choose to act or not.

I actually enjoy Dick's posts on police brutality. I find them thoroughly thought-out, logical and pretty easy to comprehend. Even if his views are unconventional, and I may not agree with them 100%, it shows some rational thought and seemed to be informed by sources outside of 'conventional' media.

So I say continue on, please. *clap clap*

That said, I know people's viewpoints aren't going to be changed by a few words on a forum. Especially since his argument are so outside of the 'norm', whatever American norms are. However I can't help but feel they contain some degree of truth. The argument that policemen overuse force when threatened by the others (blacks, cults, rioters) is very real.

After the debate between Noam Chomsky and Michel Foucault, Chomsky said of Foucault that he lacked any moral compass and was abhorred by what he genuinely believed to be true. Yet some say Foucault is a brilliant philosopher. This discussion is in the same vain as that.

-- Again, the charges are dropped for damaged control. Besides the fact disorderly conduct isn't that big of a charge in the first place, the dept and DA would rather move on. Imagine you accuse a co-worker of stealing something of yours, that co-worker turns around and starts claiming sexual harassment or racism that gets the whole companies attention. Would you rather continue down that path to just prove they did something wrong or would you drop the issue? Regardless of who is right in that senario if you continued both images will be tainted


-- This is the best response ever...."I could back up my findings but I choose not to cause I assume you know it already...so my argument is valid" Wouldn't it be great if trials could be won like this. "Uh your honor...we would present our case with graphs, charts, and hard evidence but its out there already...go find it yourself..." Since you can't be bothered I'll post his response from his lawyer

http://www.theroot.com/v...st-henry-louis-gates-jr

So reading that...there appears to be alot of similarities between the officers report and Mr. Gates. Mr Gates forces his door open ALONG with another gentleman, his driver. This debunks your "Oh he's just an old little man with a cane" Again, for all we know the neighbor is a southern racist seeing two black men...OR maybe a concerned neighbor that sees two men (possibly not able to see Mr. Gates face) trying to force open a door to a neighbor that is/was away from home on an extended trip. So Mr. Gates see the officer and opens the door...refuses to come out and asks why the cop is there. The cop educates him on his reasons for showing and asks Mr. Gates to prove he is a lawful resident. To which point he goes to the kitchen and the officer follows (hey, look I was right) So at this point Mr. Gates proves he is a lawful resident and the officer starts to leave. What twists Mr. Gates panties is the officer never notifies (or gets the chance to according to the officer) whom he is via name/badge #. Mr Gates follows the officer outside...more than likely going over the top upset because HE perceives this to be a race issue. At this point to use dramatic words Mr. Gates is probably demanding the officer's info. I'm not quite sure if you've ever dealt with someone that is going over the top upset about something. Even if you try to give them what they want...they either talk over you or don't listen. In my job as a supervisor at Cox Communications ppl will get so upset they refuse to listen as you are helping them. I could be completely agreeing...ready to give as much credit as they want if they just provide a dollar value but they spend 20 min yelling over me about how I am not helping them. So at this point they are now in view of the public...and thats when the officer decided to arrest Mr. Gates. It COULD have been based on race...but more than likely the cop was fed up at this point over Mr. Gates badgering and disruption of public space...decided to charge with disorderly conduct. You have to remember police have to walk a very fine line of being authoritative and polite, especially in public spaces. If you witness someone fighting back against the smallest bit of authority...you could perceive that authority as weak and more than likely apply more resistance (e.g. a teenager seeing a mother give into resistance may try to resist their own mother)


-- Its not that I don't believe there is anyone racist or that this situation could not have been caused by racism...but just because he's a black man in a white neighborhood does not mean racism is applied. What about a white man in a black neighborhood...are the black neighbors now automatically racist?


-- http://www.monstersandcr...urglar_arrested_in_Peru
You missed my point...how can you tell what a burglar looks like...how can you tell what a murderer looks like. Alphonse Bertillon tried to do that in the late 1800s but obviously it doesn't work. Google image search a crime+mugshots and see if you can find a common link that will allow you identify someone as a criminal at a 100% success rate



-- I can without a doubt tell you there is racism in world....I can also without a doubt say you (and I) have had a racist thought or many at some point. What I can't say without a doubt is that racism was the sole and only issue Mr. Gates was arrested...and neither can you


-- Yes, written down in your chair...in your house...not in the moment, checking out the report, verifying the resident, and leaving is the correct course of action. What if you get to the home and the resident starts yelling at you...is that going possibly tweak your game plan? Why is he yelling? Why is he refusing to show me ID? There was a report of 2 individuals, where is the 2nd? Blind trust should not be always immediately given to someone you've never met before


-- Again...it wasn't just because he was expressing anger. Its because he was expressing his anger in a public place in front of witness (civilian and police) that was disrupting. Do a favor for me..go outside in the yard and huff around acting mad, maybe kick a tree once and yell. See if anything happens. Now try the same thing in a public place with many bystanders and at least one officer and then refuse to acknowledge the officers while continuing...see if they decide to arrest you


-- A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally:

(1) engages in fighting or in tumultuous conduct;
(2) makes unreasonable noise and continues to do so after being asked to stop; or
(3) disrupts a lawful assembly of persons;

commits disorderly conduct. . .

Its a broad catch all but its still not wrong. You may perceive it as a abuse of power but without misdemeanors like these you would be on a slippery slope to more and more resistance to authority. If you as a police officer allow me to resist you in full view of the public and you do nothing about it. Whats going to happen when you pull over one of those witnesses later for an offense. Do you not think he would try some of the tactics that allowed me to walk all over you?


-- Racism is not tiny...and it COULD have played a role in this instant...but according to you it did so without a doubt. There is not other motive for a white cop to arrest a black man other than racism. And yes..you are right..the DA and dept are probably afraid of being labeled as racist so they dropped the charges. There are a plethora of cases that have been dropped due to one side or another claiming racism that overshadows who was actually right or wrong



-- Yes...from your posts you perceive it that way and want everyone else to know and/or perceive it that way too


-- Not sure why you included this other than to say "Look how special I am...EPEEN ftw"


-- This is just plain retarded....again in your world every white cop is more than likely racist so that cop you passed look and saw another white "kin" so he didn't do anything. Maybe the officer didn't care, was too lazy to pull you over, or used officer discretion. Maybe his contact messed up and that 15 miles over look like 5. Or maybe he just on route to something alittle more important (Helpful fact....cops don't always run code, lights blaring to all calls...just cause he's driving the speed limit doesn't mean he's not heading somewhere specific)

As much as you rally against authority Dick...I bet you as soon as you need it you dial 911 faster than you masturbate. I'm sure you'd try to find something to bitch at after they helped you though

Personally I like to masturbate while dialing 911, it's not an either/or for me. Sort of like how I said before cops do good things and I have known good people who are cops. It seems like whenever I explain that it's dismissed by people who would much rather try to turn me into a strawman caricature of some angry cop hating nutjob. I understand thats all bootlickers can see whenever someone questions authority, it does get old though.

So anyways, since my arguments are seemingly not understood or ignored (do you honestly believe I claimed "there is no other motive for a white cop to arrest a black man other than racism"?) I think we need to return to the special ed break down:

Can we stipulate that this basically comes down to the word of one cop who in your view was likely "fed up" with with being yelled at (i.e. was angry) vs. the word of one of America's most prominent scholars, and the police department, and the prosecutor?

Considering the circumstances, I think it is extremely likely that the police would not of been called were Gates white. I think it is extremely likely that Gates is telling the truth when he said the cop acted improperly. I think it is extremely like that Gates was treated improperly because of his race. I think it is extremely likely Gates arrest was unwarranted by the circumstances even if race was not a factor and even if Gates was yelling at the arresting officer, and even if he was yelling at this officer while standing on his porch.

If I understand yours and Triplebam's argument you believe the police would of been called regardless of Gates race. You believe Gates yelled at the police officer. You believe that Gates porch is a "public space" and it was illegal for him to yell at a police officer on his porch because his neighbors witnessing the event would lead to them believing police were weak (and thus a display of authority was required to prevent disorder). You believe that the reason Gates is not being charged with a crime is because the justice system is biased in favor black people.

Where am I wrong?

Yes, I think it is extremely likely that the person who called the police did so because of racist assumptions. At the very least it is a reasonable assumption that their racism played a major role in their mistaken belief that Gates did not belong in his home. Under the circumstances Gates belief that the presence of the police officer at his home to investigate an alleged burglary was due to racism is completely rational and expected. I try to imagine how I would deal with that were I the police officer. A rich old black guy is angry because one of his cracker neighbors called the cops, how would I respond as the white police officer standing in his home looking at the address on his ID and realizing that I had stumbled into what could become a major clusterfuck?

So, I also believe that it is extremely likely that racism played a role in how the officer responded. It may very well be that the cop is just a prick, they usually are. Considering the circumstances though I think it is a reasonable assumption that racism played a role in how the cop treated Professor Gates. Were he an old white man with a cane I would be surprised if the cop even bothered looking at his ID, and even if he did ask this hypothetical white Gates for ID it is extremely unlikely he would have arrested him.

Of course the police will come investigate a burglary, especially in a neighborhood full of rich white people. That's what they are there for.