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Rank: Fecal Impaction For the Win!
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....i hate you lol.
Quote:
"Who the fuck is Leon Switch and why does he know we have a dog?" - Mrs. Giller
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Rank: Fecal Impaction For the Win!
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endyss wrote:Giller [GwDR wrote:Pyros have always been defensive primary, and semi offensive...Dunno where this "designed to be offensive" stuff is coming from....I can cite gabe newell if i have to. I can do you one better! 
 AAAHAHAHAAAHAAAHAAAA!! Safety + Peace
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SNoB wrote:In TFC the pyro also had a long-range rocket-like weapon. Him being reduced to only close-range combat changes the recipe from that of TFC. I can't speak of TF since I never played it. He also had the same weapon in TF, they had a limited amo supply, all it did was like what the flare gun does now. Light a sniper on fire to annoy the S out of him. I dont remember many people getting kills with the pyro rocket at all. Like daniel said, the extra speed is what keeps him alive. If you use the same logic you could say a scout should have 300 hp because he is ment to run in and grab the flag, so therefore he needs more hp than a heavy because the scatter gun only works well up close. Its a stupid argument.[/quote] There's many variables to consider when balancing. I tried to point out their range to demonstrate that speed alone won't compensate for the fact they have to get in close to use their primary weapon. Their speed helps them survive a little bit longer, but still not long enough to be as viable in an offense role as a soldier. See? I'm able to factor in more than one thing. You seem to think that speed and health is all there is to balancing a class. There's also *gasp* amount of damage done. Pyros seem to do more damage now even without crit'ing, so that helps their viability, too; but a soldier can still take a target out quicker than a pyro. So you have that to compensate for, also, to balance the classes. Here's about how I'd rate the two for offense, assuming default primary weapons: Soldier: Speed ### Health ##### Range ###### (no limit) Power ##### Ammo ## Total: 21 Pyro: Speed ##### Health #### Range ## Power #### (somewhat averaged, considering range counts for so much) Ammo ### Total: 18 There's a few other things, too; crit chance, sentry kick back amount, etc., but those are getting pretty situational. But that's about where I'd put them. +50 health would add 2 points to the Pyro's health and make him more even with a soldier.
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Rank: You're gonna stick that where?
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Rikaelus wrote:
There's many variables to consider when balancing. I tried to point out their range to demonstrate that speed alone won't compensate for the fact they have to get in close to use their primary weapon. Their speed helps them survive a little bit longer, but still not long enough to be as viable in an offense role as a soldier. See? I'm able to factor in more than one thing. You seem to think that speed and health is all there is to balancing a class. There's also *gasp* amount of damage done. Pyros seem to do more damage now even without crit'ing, so that helps their viability, too; but a soldier can still take a target out quicker than a pyro. So you have that to compensate for, also, to balance the classes.
Here's about how I'd rate the two for offense, assuming default primary weapons:
Soldier:
Speed ###
Health #####
Range ###### (no limit)
Power #####
Ammo ##
Total: 21
Pyro:
Speed #####
Health ####
Range ##
Power #### (somewhat averaged, considering range counts for so much)
Ammo ###
Total: 18
There's a few other things, too; crit chance, sentry kick back amount, etc., but those are getting pretty situational. But that's about where I'd put them. +50 health would add 2 points to the Pyro's health and make him more even with a soldier.
If you read the posts before this you would see that a Pyro is not meant to be like a soldier, it's not meant to be "as viable in offense as a soldier". The class is separate, the whole point of classes is to make them all different and unique. We are not saying speed is supposed to be substitute for health absolutely, but they are the main attributes for the balance in place. -Scout, lowest health. Highest speed. The class utilizes its speed to do damage (scatter gun is an upclose weapon) and to survive (dodging shit) -Soldier, high health. Lowest speed. The class's health is high to make up for its lack of mobility (dodging shit) and its weapon high damage makes up for the fact the rocket is easy to dodge and its delay/reload. Balance is based on rock paper scissors. Not so much everyone is on par with every other class, that would sort of ruin the point of making specific classes. Each class has a weakness against another in most general circumstances. The pyro health bonus threw off most weaknesses the pyro had. Heavy is weak against a sniper. Sniper is weak against Spy. etc. Your whole chart thing can't be used seriously.. it's opinion. Why dont i make a chart? A scout compared to a soldier, hey it's not fair that i can die in one rocket, Give me more health points wtf?
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No there isnt a range limit on the rocket, but when you fire at a long distance, unless its against a stationary target or a total moron, a hit is a lot of luck. Good soldiers can lead people running in a straight line, but the longer the distance the harder it is to do. Now without the reduction in self damage you could even call the rocket launcher a non-close range weapon! That change in the game right there made soldiers a lot less effective against pyros.
Pyros. They shout and curse. Stabbing wildly. More brawlers than warriors. They make a wondrous mess of things. Brave amateurs.
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daniel wrote:
If you read the posts before this you would see that a Pyro is not meant to be like a soldier, it's not meant to be "as viable in offense as a soldier". The class is separate, the whole point of classes is to make them all different and unique. We are not saying speed is supposed to be substitute for health absolutely, but they are the main attributes for the balance in place.
You think it has to "be like a soldier" to be "as viable in offense as a soldier"? "Offense" is a pretty general category, you know. There are many ways to do things that are equally effective for offensive objectives. Yes, the class is separate. Yes, it's played differently than a soldier. But it should be as viable for offense as a soldier. Simply speaking, soldiers are for ranged offense and pyros are for close-quarter offense.
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SNoB wrote:No there isnt a range limit on the rocket, but when you fire at a long distance, unless its against a stationary target or a total moron, a hit is a lot of luck. Good soldiers can lead people running in a straight line, but the longer the distance the harder it is to do. Now without the reduction in self damage you could even call the rocket launcher a non-close range weapon! That change in the game right there made soldiers a lot less effective against pyros. You'd be amazed how many people I've taken out just randomly firing at corners as they're about to walk around them. You can also spam choke-points and usually get pretty lucky.
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At first I was glad that the pyros lost the health boost, because I'm used to playing sniper and medic, the two easiest pyro targets in the game. But now that I think about it, I can't really recall many times where it seemed the pyro was harder to kill if they were wielding a Backburner. If anything it made headshots easier, because the pyros with health boosts ran around in straight lines like they thought they were invincible. And as a medic, if I happen to ever get stranded or separated by a pyro, it's a lot easier to defend myself with the Blutsauger if the pyro runs in straight lines.
I don't often get caught on fire from the backside, because that flamethrower has a nasty tendency to stick out around corners even if the player thinks they're hidden. I can't say that I'm glad to see pyros using the regular flamethrower, either, because I get hit with crits from that thing often enough to say that the Backburner probably isn't any good unless lighting up their backside.
I think the weapon was balanced before they removed the extra health.
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Let's stop arguing already. The 50 health is gone and probably not coming back. Valve has made the game balanced and they will continue to do so. Chase: the only refuge i have from my mom is when i go to my gf's Me: I have no gf, just palmela handerson Chase: Well at least you aren't a double amputee.
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jamesbigmac wrote:Valve has made the game balanced and they will continue to do so. no. silverwasp wrote:Be careful what you wish for... I have 10 younger siblings and I am only 20....
Yes.... Same parents WarMachine wrote:meh...maybe if he hadn't been handed a burning house he could have done great things, but right now he has won the Prize for what? Damage Control?
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id keep going but i see that the point i am trying to make and my response to your arguments go unnoticed. Most players see the balance, i'll just stick with that. And BTW as a sniper of course you don't notice the health difference with the range/damage increase it seemed to get. Oh and they run in straight lines because they realized in 90% cases they didn't need to dodge or do shit because now they were more noob friendly and could take the shots. So just running at you is enough.
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daniel wrote:id keep going but i see that the point i am trying to make and my response to your arguments go unnoticed.
Most players see the balance, i'll just stick with that.
And BTW as a sniper of course you don't notice the health difference with the range/damage increase it seemed to get. Oh and they run in straight lines because they realized in 90% cases they didn't need to dodge or do shit because now they were more noob friendly and could take the shots. So just running at you is enough. Who are these "most players"? Making grandiose claims of people on your side doesn't make the claims valid or you right. I still see people bitching as much about pyros now as they did when they had the +50 health. Like I said, people will bitch about pyros simply because there's more of them now and people don't like being killed by them - especially if they've already killed the pyro. I despise running into them as a soldier and I always have. It just wasn't the trendy thing to bitch about them before their achievement update; now it is. So QQ.
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Rikaelus wrote:daniel wrote:id keep going but i see that the point i am trying to make and my response to your arguments go unnoticed.
Most players see the balance, i'll just stick with that.
And BTW as a sniper of course you don't notice the health difference with the range/damage increase it seemed to get. Oh and they run in straight lines because they realized in 90% cases they didn't need to dodge or do shit because now they were more noob friendly and could take the shots. So just running at you is enough. Who are these "most players"? Making grandiose claims of people on your side doesn't make the claims valid or you right. I still see people bitching as much about pyros now as they did when they had the +50 health. Like I said, people will bitch about pyros simply because there's more of them now and people don't like being killed by them - especially if they've already killed the pyro. I despise running into them as a soldier and I always have. It just wasn't the trendy thing to bitch about them before their achievement update; now it is. So QQ.
I see the balance. TEAM APARTMENT: No one rocks quite as hard as we do. Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart wrote:the flying spaghetti monster skullfucked Bob's corpse. Lead Salad wrote:My ePenis is 10 feet long! WDF wrote:A pair in douchbaggery.
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delta62 wrote:Rikaelus wrote:daniel wrote:id keep going but i see that the point i am trying to make and my response to your arguments go unnoticed.
Most players see the balance, i'll just stick with that.
And BTW as a sniper of course you don't notice the health difference with the range/damage increase it seemed to get. Oh and they run in straight lines because they realized in 90% cases they didn't need to dodge or do shit because now they were more noob friendly and could take the shots. So just running at you is enough. Who are these "most players"? Making grandiose claims of people on your side doesn't make the claims valid or you right. I still see people bitching as much about pyros now as they did when they had the +50 health. Like I said, people will bitch about pyros simply because there's more of them now and people don't like being killed by them - especially if they've already killed the pyro. I despise running into them as a soldier and I always have. It just wasn't the trendy thing to bitch about them before their achievement update; now it is. So QQ. I see the balance. You thought they were imbalanced with +50 health and now you see them as balanced? Both playing as them and playing against them, I can't say I see any huge difference; just very subtle differences in very specific situations.
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HolyJaw wrote:jamesbigmac wrote:Valve has made the game balanced and they will continue to do so. no. +1 bring back bunnyhopping. You wanna take this to Fuck Town?
Oh gadzooks, yes!
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