Poll Question : Would you join an armed revolution on the US govt?
Choice Votes Statistics
Yes 12 48 %
No 13 52 %

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Rikaelus
#46 Posted: : Friday, October 10, 2008 4:39:06 PM
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RichardAwesome wrote:
Rikaelus wrote:
RichardAwesome wrote:
So silenced, you're sitting here on an internet forum voicing your opinion.


I use to run a political discussion site, actually.

There's a big difference between freedom of social speech and having a "voice" in the government by way of voting. But even socially, there are powers that keep us quiet - not silenced, perhaps, but quiet. For instance, who's likely to be more noticed: me posting here, or a millionaire or corporation buying airtime for a commercial to express their views? And in a way the internet has actually worked against social free speech; the web is so saturated by people expressing their views that it ends up as a huge ball of static where individual views are paid little attention to.


It's called liberty.  Doesn't make it fair.  Fair isn't liberty.


If the manner in which we elect our representatives and president is compromised by this "unfairness", then we might as well close the voting polls, put a crown on Bush's head, and bow down to him. We absolutely cannot tolerate the corruption and influence of our interaction with the voting and representation processes.

RichardAwesome
#47 Posted: : Friday, October 10, 2008 4:55:34 PM
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Rikaelus wrote:
RichardAwesome wrote:
Rikaelus wrote:
RichardAwesome wrote:
So silenced, you're sitting here on an internet forum voicing your opinion.


I use to run a political discussion site, actually.

There's a big difference between freedom of social speech and having a "voice" in the government by way of voting. But even socially, there are powers that keep us quiet - not silenced, perhaps, but quiet. For instance, who's likely to be more noticed: me posting here, or a millionaire or corporation buying airtime for a commercial to express their views? And in a way the internet has actually worked against social free speech; the web is so saturated by people expressing their views that it ends up as a huge ball of static where individual views are paid little attention to.


It's called liberty.  Doesn't make it fair.  Fair isn't liberty.


If the manner in which we elect our representatives and president is compromised by this "unfairness", then we might as well close the voting polls, put a crown on Bush's head, and bow down to him. We absolutely cannot tolerate the corruption and influence of our interaction with the voting and representation processes.


I was hasty in my reply.  As far as the election process itself is concerned, it's about as fair as it's going to get.  The college itself was a compromise much like another notable portion of our government.  It's basically the half-way point between directly electing a president through popular vote and functioning on a level equivalent to a parliament.  It only has trouble when the elections are so close that even if it weren't an electoral college, the results would've been disputed simply because so few separated the candidates.  Bush v. Gore wasn't the first case of a close election being decided without the popular vote.  I doubt it will be the last, but it doesn't happen anywhere near the level of "often" and the alternatives won't make the system better.

As far as voting methods go, I've never understood why there just isn't a universal form of voting, at least for national elections.  That should be worked on, but apparently not enough people care because, for the most part, again, the system works despite its hiccups.  Most states are able to come up with functional ballots and have a well organized means of collecting/counting them unlike say... Florida.

Now if you're talking about campaigning, well yeah, money certainly makes the campaign but doesn't always elect the candidate.  But like I said, the guy has money because the guy put himself in a better situation(more often than not) and decided to spend money on a political view or candidate.

All this is worked around a simple fact that we're social animals that operate under rules and regulations, often unspoken to maintain the social order.  Kinda like being here.  Government is just a larger manifestation of that.
Giller [GwDR]
#48 Posted: : Friday, October 10, 2008 6:33:19 PM
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Agreed on the Electoral college.   Don't believe for a minute that a pure democracy and popular vote would be any better than the system we have now.   The popular vote would greatly enable this shadowy, ubiquitous oppression you cry out against....imagine the media influence, the pop fanaticism, etc. that would take an even tighter hold of elections.  Don't adhere to an elementary definition of american democracy...it's on par with 3rd graders who just got out of social studies and cry " I can do whatever I want...ITS A FREE COUNTRY" 


Quote:

"Who the fuck is Leon Switch and why does he know we have a dog?" - Mrs. Giller
RichardAwesome
#49 Posted: : Friday, October 10, 2008 6:46:25 PM
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Giller [GwDR wrote:
]

Agreed on the Electoral college.   Don't believe for a minute that a pure democracy and popular vote would be any better than the system we have now.   The popular vote would greatly enable this shadowy, ubiquitous oppression you cry out against....imagine the media influence, the pop fanaticism, etc. that would take an even tighter hold of elections.  Don't adhere to an elementary definition of american democracy...it's on par with 3rd graders who just got out of social studies and cry " I can do whatever I want...ITS A FREE COUNTRY" 



Don't forget that California and the New England states would effectively be the battleground every election.
Rikaelus
#50 Posted: : Saturday, October 11, 2008 2:10:53 PM
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RichardAwesome wrote:
Giller [GwDR wrote:
]

Agreed on the Electoral college.   Don't believe for a minute that a pure democracy and popular vote would be any better than the system we have now.   The popular vote would greatly enable this shadowy, ubiquitous oppression you cry out against....imagine the media influence, the pop fanaticism, etc. that would take an even tighter hold of elections.  Don't adhere to an elementary definition of american democracy...it's on par with 3rd graders who just got out of social studies and cry " I can do whatever I want...ITS A FREE COUNTRY" 



Don't forget that California and the New England states would effectively be the battleground every election.


Pointing out that certain states will be more important than others as an argument against using the popular vote is really just an excuse to deny us a purer democracy. Take away the Electoral College and "state" will have no meaning in the presidential election - as it shouldn't. We're not electing the president of any one state but of the entire nation.

What's worse, states have a minimum of 3 Electorates. In 2000, members of the US House of Representatives represented an average of 646,952 constituents. So whether a state has 10 people or 500,000, they'll have one representative and thus 3 Electorate votes. So the vote of each of those 10 people is 50,000 times more valuable than the votes of each of the 500,000 people. That's a blatant, fundamental assault upon the very principle of democracy. Add to that the fact that if one candidate gets only 51% of the vote within a state, they could get 100% of the Electorate votes, and I think it's pretty clear that the election of the president is most definitely NOT democratic in nature.

bitchmaker
#51 Posted: : Wednesday, October 15, 2008 2:16:10 AM
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All great points and I can't disagree with you on a logical level, but do you for a moment think we would be any better off  under a purer form of democracy. I think not.  You would have the same degree of (if not more) corruption in the government  and exploitation of the populus. From a practical standpoint there is no difference. The majority gets screwed any way you look at it.

{pDs}BelligerentPimp wrote:

No using the word "fucktard" unless you are refering to TonyRWC or Youngripark.j2.


WDF? wrote:
go fuck yourself hanukkah style.
endyss
#52 Posted: : Wednesday, October 15, 2008 4:33:10 AM
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bitchmaker wrote:

All great points and I can't disagree with you on a logical level, but do you for a moment think we would be any better off  under a purer form of democracy. I think not.  You would have the same degree of (if not more) corruption in the government  and exploitation of the populus. From a practical standpoint there is no difference. The majority gets screwed any way you look at it.


I hate to be a curmudgeon (actually I don't), but wouldn't the answer then be to limit the expansiveness of government, especially at the federal level, and put more power in the hands of a) state governments where the votes of its citizens make a great deal more difference, and more importantly b) We the People?


HolyJaw wrote:
In the end, everything Endyss said.


bitchmaker
#53 Posted: : Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:36:18 AM
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I totally agree with you but what are odds that will happen?

{pDs}BelligerentPimp wrote:

No using the word "fucktard" unless you are refering to TonyRWC or Youngripark.j2.


WDF? wrote:
go fuck yourself hanukkah style.
Dick Cheney's Mechanical Heart
#54 Posted: : Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:59:21 AM
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endyss wrote:
bitchmaker wrote:

All great points and I can't disagree with you on a logical level, but do you for a moment think we would be any better off  under a purer form of democracy. I think not.  You would have the same degree of (if not more) corruption in the government  and exploitation of the populus. From a practical standpoint there is no difference. The majority gets screwed any way you look at it.


I hate to be a curmudgeon (actually I don't), but wouldn't the answer then be to limit the expansiveness of government, especially at the federal level, and put more power in the hands of a) state governments where the votes of its citizens make a great deal more difference, and more importantly b) We the People?


fuck limiting it, kill it.
Razor wrote:
Killing people is good therapy.


Rikaelus
#55 Posted: : Wednesday, October 15, 2008 2:54:57 PM
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bitchmaker wrote:

All great points and I can't disagree with you on a logical level, but do you for a moment think we would be any better off  under a purer form of democracy. I think not.  You would have the same degree of (if not more) corruption in the government  and exploitation of the populus. From a practical standpoint there is no difference. The majority gets screwed any way you look at it.



If you refer to the notion of removing the Electoral College in favor of a direct, popular vote, then no.. I don't think it would lead to additional exploitation of the populous. If such a thing occurred then it would be a reduction of bureaucracy and thus equate to less opportunity for politicians and political processes to step on our toes.

Someday I would love to see us be able to vote for things on a national level more than just the presidency; as well as on the city- and state-level governments on a more regular basis. Of course that cannot happen until we have a voting mechanism that's both secure (ha.) and easily deployed often. The danger to that, however, is the general ignorance of the public. To open more issues up to a popular vote would be an invitation for idiots to affect policy where at least our representatives could provide some protection - though they've proven to be far from idiot-proof, themselves.

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