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For the 16millionth time stop stacking teams. Options
Splinter
#31 Posted: : Friday, September 12, 2008 7:53:41 PM
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Unless the game is a 1 sided fight I could see the stacking being a problem. Other then that if both teams manage to win some rounds then its perfectly alright. What I want to encourage {pDs} is if you see the game being a 1 sided fight then organize yourselfs to compensate cause thats when people start to leave.

ahhhh_crap wrote:
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Darkillumina
#32 Posted: : Friday, September 12, 2008 8:49:08 PM
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Actually Cecilsan I did flex my muscles thank you very much =)

I dont appreciate being called a liar either. Why would I make this shit up? I'm not a troll nor do I intend to insult people I'm just attempting to bring to light a problem albeit a small one at times.

But I think the admins have clarified this well enough. =) So it's all good.
I'm the leetest one here

Cecilsan[GwDR]
#33 Posted: : Friday, September 12, 2008 9:31:13 PM
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Darkillumina wrote:
Actually Cecilsan I did flex my muscles thank you very much =)

I dont appreciate being called a liar either. Why would I make this shit up? I'm not a troll nor do I intend to insult people I'm just attempting to bring to light a problem albeit a small one at times.

But I think the admins have clarified this well enough. =) So it's all good.

 

Apologize for calling you a liar (although I really didnt mean it like "You Darkillumina are a LIAR!")...just pointing out you do care about the issue, at least enough to bring it to light...

Sunfox
#34 Posted: : Friday, September 12, 2008 11:34:01 PM
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Oh, there was some definite skill stacking in that particular game. Nothing malicious, don't get me wrong. I joined red knowing it was the "lesser" team - and when we got pwned I even joked in team chat "I knew it was a mistake not to join the stacked team". :-)

That screenshot was taken a bit further into the game; I believe the situation was worse when the game first started. I have no problem with it, but the problem comes when noobs prefer to quit rather than stick it out and push forward.

daniel
#35 Posted: : Saturday, September 13, 2008 3:41:33 AM
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Dark thanks bro.

I'd bring it up but everytime i have i am just straight out ridiculed for it by the players on the 'stacked' team so i pretty much gave up. Either that or they just make up bullshit excuses, "what? we barely just won right now, how is it stacked?" (Imagine the shit i'd get if i posted on the forums)

I've been joining the lesser team for a long while now and i mean it does get really tiring and pretty discouraging.

It's stack because since all the players are so familiar and fairly skilled the same, any point in the game they can instantly decide whether they want to roll over the weak team. (instead of fucking around)

Anyway so thanks again Dark.


Splinter
#36 Posted: : Saturday, September 13, 2008 5:12:03 AM
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endyss wrote:
This has gone far enough and needs swift resolution.  The following is the judgment of the Administrative Appellate Court (as opposed to the Supreme Court of Whut):

There was no misconduct here.

Clan Stacking
Clan stacking is not a good thing in a general sense, but for a specific reason, and not that one side on a map consistently wins.  That aspect is irrelevant.  The salient elements of clan stacking as a negative are two-fold:
  1. All or an overwhelming majority of players of the same clan (as indicated by their tag) playing on one team and unbalancing the game overall...
  2. ...which creates the perception among unfamiliar players that the sides are unfairly stacked.
While Server Admins should not permit egregious clan stacking from any group on the servers, the most detrimental form of this conduct is when done by members of {pDs}, since that clan is so closely affiliated with the Tempest servers.  It is the most frequently seen clan on the servers, and ads to join the clan are even broadcast along with other server-related messages in-game.  A clear case of clan stacking by {pDs} has the potential to not only imbalance a single game, it can negatively impact newcomers' opinion of the servers overall.

In my opinion, clan stacking should be more clearly defined.  Since it is a ratio-based imbalance of clan members (five on one team and none on the other would be 5:0; two on each side would be 1:1), it would not be extremely difficult to set a threshold ratio after which Server Admins should begin demanding some players change teams.  A slightly more stringent ratio might be appropriate for clan {pDs} specifically, for the perceptual reason stated above, but also since they can be made aware of the rules, and many of them are Server Admins already.  I believe a ratio of 5:1 for {pDs} and 6:1 for all other clans is appropriate (or 5:0 and 6:0, respectively, if there are no members of that clan on the opposing team).  These numbers may seem high, but this is the point at which corrective action should be initiated.  In a 5:1 instance, one player changing teams would immediately bring the ratio down to 4:2, which pares down to 2:1 at its lowest common denominator.  The relatively high threshold also continues to respect Whut's desire that clan stacking should be more of a guideline while providing Server Admins with a clear rule to enforce.  This will be the new rule on Tempest servers, unless it should be "overturned" by Whut.  We decline today to consider the question of whether incidents of clan stacking could be remedied by offending players changing their names, whether dropping their clan tag or changing their names entirely, but it is something to consider in the future.

All that being said, in this case we need not even reach such a conclusion for both reasons of set precedent (stare decisis for you in the legal world), as well as failure to state a case here.  In terms of set precedent, Whut has said fairly authoritatively that the entire notion of clan stacking is "more of a guideline now."  Source.  Thus, for anything but the clearest and most server-killing incidents of clan stacking, corrective action is completely optional at best.  At worst, Whut meant to do away with any former rules on clan stacking, in which case this complaint should have been better addressed as an appeal to "bring back rules against clan stacking," not an indignant rant demanding the enforcement of a rule that doesn't exist.  In that light, DarkIllumina's complaint has had a corrective effect, but more out of a need for a more well-defined rule on clan stacking than any conduct in this particular case.

Secondly, even under the new rule scheme, the ratio in this case of 5:2, paring down to 2.5:1, would not demand any corrective action.

"Community Stacking"
DarkIllumina mentioned in another post that the issue he meant to raise had less to do with clan stacking and more to do with skilled regular players than an imbalance of any clan numbers.  This notion of "community stacking" runs counter to both reality in the game and the community policy this site wishes to promote.

Players come in all skill levels, regardless of their frequency of appearance on Tempest servers.  There are plenty of skilled players in our community, as well as many less skilled players.  The same is true among people who have never been to the servers.  There is nothing to stop an excellent player from joining our server and, while he would be a complete newcomer, his skill level would far exceed many regulars that have been part of the community for a long time.  The argument could be raised that a team of unaffiliated newcomers might be considerably less organized than a team of community regulars, but this too would fail.  Efforts by the community to organize have been relatively minimal, especially lately, and there is nothing outside of possible familiarity with another player's play style or class preferences that gives community players a clear advantage.

More seriously damning to this line of thinking is the perceptual and psychological effects a rule against "community stacking" would bring, both inside and outside of the community.  Inside the community, when we are on the Tempest servers, we are usually there to play with our friends from the forums.  This has the cyclical effect of fostering even more community spirit (how many threads have there been just discussing someone's, such as Bendy's, conduct in the game?).  We want community regulars to play together on the Tempest servers.  In a time when overall server populations are relatively high, but community spirit to go out and play the game is comparatively low, this is something we want to go out of our way to encourage.  A nebulous concept of "community stacking" would do the opposite.

In addition, such a rule would also be all but unenforceable.  While traditional clan stacking ultimately boils down to a clearly defined numbers game, this concept would set at the feet of Server Admins the unenviable task of answering questions such as:
  • How long has each potentially stacking player been in the community?  Is that long enough to call them a "regular?"
  • How skilled is each potentially stacking player, and are they skilled enough to add into the community stacking calculation?
  • Is the ratio for skilled regulars the same as clan stacking?
  • How do Server Admins carry out enforcement in case of a violation?  In traditional clan stacking, they can call for "Someone from {pDs} to switch teams" to balance.  With community stacking, would they list out all the regulars to the server, branding them as rule violators for the rest of the server watching, and demand one or more of them change teams?
  • Do Server Admins then begin kicking our own regular community members out of our servers if they disagree with the admin's judgment or refuse to comply?
Finally, "community stacking" does not carry with it any of the negative external perceptual stigma associated with traditional clan stacking -- namely that unfamiliar players will perceive a disadvantage.  Regardless of how the rounds play out, it is considerably less likely that new players will associate the results with a skill imbalance in favor of community regulars.  Much more likely, they will either leave (ultimately forcing some of those regulars to change teams anyway) or change teams themselves, further diluting any "community stacking" that may have occurred.


In summary, clan stacking is not of high enforcement priority, but there should be some kind of upper limit in extreme cases.  From now on, this will be a 5:1/5:0 ratio for clan {pDs} and 6:1/6:0 for all other clans.  However, there is no such thing as community stacking, and no attempt to balance skill levels and community regularity on the Tempest servers will take place.


((btw, this is the closest I've ever come on the forums to a legal-sounding post addressing an problem.  Please (politely, if you are capable) let me know if you find the style worthy in thoroughly dealing with all the issues, or... not))


I think you should summerize moar and type less, too much reading break brain. but again the way I see it is that ppl should try to mix up the teams if they are a 1 sided fight. clan stacking I can't see it being a problem. it all comes down to the fact if which 1 team is winning all the time or not. thats my 2 cents.... and I mean 2 cents unlike Endyss's 2000 cents and a quarter.

ahhhh_crap wrote:
no, splinter has ethics and whut has emotions
endyss
#37 Posted: : Saturday, September 13, 2008 5:24:40 AM
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Splinter wrote:
I think you should summerize moar and type less, too much reading break brain. but again the way I see it is that ppl should try to mix up the teams if they are a 1 sided fight. clan stacking I can't see it being a problem. it all comes down to the fact if which 1 team is winning all the time or not. thats my 2 cents.... and I mean 2 cents unlike Endyss's 2000 cents and a quarter.


That's why I make a point of summarizing both at the beginning and end of a mega-long post.  The rest of it just covers all the bases so someone can't come back and say "Oh, but you forgot about---".  I guess I'm assuming some people find the extra attention to detail to be a good thing.


HolyJaw wrote:
In the end, everything Endyss said.


SNoB
#38 Posted: : Saturday, September 13, 2008 6:46:48 AM
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I usually try and join the team my friends are on, or if I want to attack/defend that round.  These days I dont feel like I have too many friends left in pDs so you could call  what I do "community stacking"

Cecilsan[GwDR wrote:
]

I doubt there is a way to effectively put down a black and white rule on this issue, its going to happen, new and old people on the server are going to feel like its stacked at some point.  Just last week I got pissed cause we were getting rolled but only because the other team was actually using teamwork.  Nothing pisses you off more to see an even amount of all heavies and all medics steamrolling the shit outta you lol...



If this was the game I think you are talking about yeah, it was sad.  We had good people just couldnt pull it together.  Then I got auto'd and decided to cause problems!


So if anyone thinks there is some bad clan, or community stacking going on on the tempest servers, go hit up [-Q-] clan 24/7 gold rush when -=gdc=- is playing.  They will steam message their clanmates what team to join.  Some of them donate so they wont get auto balanced when the other team starts to quit, the others will just join spec and wait it out..  I think it was the first time I had ever seen the first stage end without the cart getting to the first turn.



Pyros. They shout and curse. Stabbing wildly. More brawlers than warriors. They make a wondrous mess of things. Brave amateurs.
Splinter
#39 Posted: : Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:40:49 AM
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Ok lets look at this from another perspective, how often is this a problem? If its caused often on several servers I could see a change being needed. I admit I can't be on all the servers all the time, so I hardly see this being as a very often thing happening. I myself see this very rare, and it mostly only shows on servers that have a rather lower player count then a full 32 server. With a full 32 person server and so much chaos going around I doubt even the most skilled player could last long with so much mayham, bullets, explosions and flames going everywhere.

I think the only reason we had "no clan stacking" in the first place was to actually prevent the game from having 1 team win everytime.

Although not the same game I have come to experiance what its like for a bunch of random people to go against 1 team full of 1 clan members in Day of Defeat. Despite all said It was actually fun from time to time as sometimes a bunch of random people managed to beat an entire clan that was greater organized in a sence that they play with eachother more then alot of mixed people. And yes this was on a 32 full server.

For the moment now I think it could be best to analize this more to see if it needs action to be taken or not. How often is this happening during what times on what server. If it is a problem happening often enough for action to be taken then im all for change. But until i see some hard evidence of this being a real big issue I don't think anything should be changed.

ahhhh_crap wrote:
no, splinter has ethics and whut has emotions
Leon Switch
#40 Posted: : Saturday, September 13, 2008 2:31:00 PM
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My (un-insightful) observations:

Most players: Are content just playing the game. They are still getting the hang of things and could care less about the overall scheme of winning and losing. When I first started I was happy just watching my sentries kill more than 2 people.

The Tempests: Are not too bad in terms of stacking....Other communities are a stack-fest. We're not at that point yet.

pDs and 'regulars': like myself are more in-tune with game dynamics like fairness and stacking. We are usually the complainers.

Consequences of stacking: include pissing off existing regulars and stopping us from recruiting new ones.

My personal solution:
Is to shanghai a decent player to join the opposing team with me and balance it out. This is what Daniel is getting at, is that it's more challenging and fun to overcome a stacking situation. Plus you can gloat more. But you have to have people backing you up or it gets lame.

Another solution: Is to start talking on the mic on a losing team. Losing teams are silent whereas winning ones have Ed the Wolf talking about his day and his diarehea problems. I'm surprised how once you get started, others will start turning on their mics and join in. Then it becomes interesting.
Sunfox
#41 Posted: : Saturday, September 13, 2008 9:36:47 PM
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Yeah, I recall playing on some 24x7 CP servers in the past where like 8-12 of a single clan would join, and all be on the same team. If one got auto-balanced, they would quit or spectate rather than play on the opposite team. It got quite annoying, because they were fairly good, but only seemed to like to play on heavily lop sided teams.

Nothing's like that here... and yes, we all like to play with our friends, but sometimes it's better to suck it up and play against them. I know the ONLY way I can get some points is by killing good players! :-)

Rikaelus
#42 Posted: : Saturday, September 13, 2008 10:34:28 PM
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Darkillumina wrote:

Yeah I care enough to be a voice for those who may not have the courage to post something about it. Honestly it doesn't affect me at all I just play on whatever team I'm assigned to I could care less if that team is being rolled. What I do care about though is severe imbalance that could scare people away. To stroke my e-peen a bit I'm leet enough to pretty much work anybody mono e mono  when Im trying, so it doesnt bother me personally when theres a severe imbalance but for the millionth fucking time we can all agree it sucks to play on empty servers so going out of our way collectively to make the Tempests welcoming for all would be great.

Don't ever accuse me of lying again either noobsauce.


I've seen teams with a lot of regulars get rolled by a team of people I didn't recognize. Rolling is not an affect of a team of regulars. Good offensive support on a single medic/heavy duo can be all a team needs to begin rolling the opposition. Being regular or not really has nothing to do with that.

But as was said, yeah.. if you switch to the winning team, you're a douche. Even if my team gets momentum I might enjoy it for a while, but then switch. There's more kills when you're on the team being rolled, anyway. =)

daniel
#43 Posted: : Sunday, September 14, 2008 1:38:56 PM
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Rikaelus wrote:
Darkillumina wrote:

Yeah I care enough to be a voice for those who may not have the courage to post something about it. Honestly it doesn't affect me at all I just play on whatever team I'm assigned to I could care less if that team is being rolled. What I do care about though is severe imbalance that could scare people away. To stroke my e-peen a bit I'm leet enough to pretty much work anybody mono e mono  when Im trying, so it doesnt bother me personally when theres a severe imbalance but for the millionth fucking time we can all agree it sucks to play on empty servers so going out of our way collectively to make the Tempests welcoming for all would be great.

Don't ever accuse me of lying again either noobsauce.


I've seen teams with a lot of regulars get rolled by a team of people I didn't recognize. Rolling is not an affect of a team of regulars. Good offensive support on a single medic/heavy duo can be all a team needs to begin rolling the opposition. Being regular or not really has nothing to do with that.

But as was said, yeah.. if you switch to the winning team, you're a douche. Even if my team gets momentum I might enjoy it for a while, but then switch. There's more kills when you're on the team being rolled, anyway. =)


The point i think i'm making along with Dark is that a team of regulars are stacked because they are more likely to communicate and play whatever is needed in order to win.
So the chances of getting good support with a heavy/medic duo with people you aren't familiar with is very slim compared to when you play with people are you familiar with.

I wouldn't go medic to heal some random heavy the chances are he just wants to kill or is barely learning or just really care much in general.
But I'd gladly go medic to heal let's say Leon or Superficial.

catch my drift?


Rikaelus
#44 Posted: : Sunday, September 14, 2008 5:32:04 PM
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daniel wrote:
catch my drift?


I suppose, but a person playing a class that's needed is just the mark of a good team player. It's true that many of our regulars qualify as that, but then you don't need to be a regular to do that. I guess that's my angle. Saying the problem is clan stacking or "regular stacking" can be overly broad. Those involved could be awful team players and their stacking could actually hurt their chances. The issue is more specifically "team-player stacking" but it's hard to make that accusation when you don't know everyone on the server. There might be people who are on the server for the first time which are excellent team players. A screenshot of the score board won't show that.

Saber (Wu)
#45 Posted: : Sunday, September 14, 2008 6:17:49 PM
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I suggest we do Arena style w/o spectate option. No more "Join blue team" or "Join red team". Everyone MUST choose random. No one can join spectator and wait for a slot opening.
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